[00:00:00.47] [Rooked theme music plays]
[00:00:06.12] [Lile Koridze] Once I was walking with, like, these teammates, guy teammates, and one of the man said that you walking with us and stuff is like hiring prostitute. Can't really forget this thing. So that's why I don't like going out. Like, I will feel like I'm kind of hired prostitute. I mean, dude, I'm just literally walking because we just finished the round, and I want to eat food or, like, drink Coca-Cola or something. I mean, I don't know, like, dude, why, why? Because I'm a freaking woman or whatever? What's the problem, you know? So that's why since that, I'm like, no, no guys around me, nothing. Because it's not about assault. And I still have this in mind, you know? That's why I prefer not to be around these guys, because they speak this kind of way to women.
[00:00:52.45] I really don't want my reputation to be damaged. I don't want to be-- so I'm trying to avoid them as much as possible and don't stay with them. You want to socialize and you can't really socialize because you're afraid. So that's the thing. That's why I was meaning all of this stuff. So I really don't care if other people know. That's reality.
[00:01:10.45] It happened, like, a long time ago, but I still remember that. So it's not pleasant thing. I mean, that's the main reason I don't want to get along with these people, and I want to try distance. But you can't try distance because there's most of men, you know? And also, like, I don't have anyone who will come with me during tournaments, you know, and you're alone. It's really sad. So that's the-- I feel hard with these words, even though it has been many years ago. And it was as a joke. But it's never a joke.
[00:01:42.01] I mean, I told this guy that I didn't like the way he spoke and didn't like him. So it means that as a woman, we should be stuck at home and can't go out with them? And because it's all their mentality, women who goes out with men just to speak, just to walk? It's, like, prostitute, sorry? I mean, it reminds me of really older mentality.
[00:02:00.25] Problem is that these people are from the countries which are very developed about feminism, very developed about equality and stuff. So it means that it's not. It's just surface. There is no equality. There is no development. It's just for surface, and it shows like this, but in reality it's not that way.
[00:02:19.32] [Jess] As promised, we're back for part 2 of this sidestep from the Sinquefield Cup scandal. And if you haven't listened to part 1 yet, you should go back and do that, partly because we're really proud of it, but also because we explain how our investigation into cheating allegations ended up leading us into the mire that is sexism in chess.
[00:02:42.69] [Ryan] This is still a story about chess, but it's also about how far we still need to go for women to be equal in this great game, and what needs to change in order to make that happen.
[00:03:00.00] [Jess] Because this is a tale of chess and a tale about the fight for inclusivity.
[00:03:06.75] [Ryan] This is a tale of misogyny, sexism, and a turning tide.
[00:03:13.67] [Jess] This is a tale of cheating, of lies and conspiracies.
[00:03:20.36] [both] This is Rooked: The Cheaters' Gambit.
[00:03:27.52] [Music fades]
[00:03:27.99] [Gloomy music plays]
[00:03:32.27] [Jess] I'm Jess Schmidt. I'm a woman and a podcaster. I am not good at chess, but for some reason, I have become completely enchanted by this sport, and especially by the women who play it.
[00:03:46.82] [Ryan] I'm Ryan Webb. I'm a chess player and first-time podcaster. I started playing chess because of the Queen's Gambit. And even though Beth Harmon is a fictional character, she's the reason I now have an over 600-day streak for games played on chess.com.
[00:04:04.10] [Jess] That's, like, almost two years, Ryan. And you got your wisdom teeth removed and you quit chewing nicotine gum in the same week last year.
[00:04:13.16] [Ryan] Yeah, I lost a shitload of rating points that week. Turns out T3s do not make you better at chess.
[00:04:19.94] [Jess] And then you just stop taking them because you couldn't poop. That was actually worse than the nicotine withdrawal.
[00:04:26.12] [Ryan] Yeah, that was probably the worst week of my entire life. Little tip: don't play chess constipated.
[00:04:33.56] [Jess] Or high on T3s.
[00:04:36.82] [Upbeat piano music plays]
[00:04:37.22] Last episode, we introduced you to some new voices. But we also want to bring back the hosts of chessfeels, Julia Rios and JJ Lang. You last heard them in the psychology episode, but they also had some great insights about equality, inclusivity, and sexism in chess.
[00:04:56.12] [Julia Rios] I'm Julia Rios. I use she/her pronouns. I am in my clinical residency for my doctorate in clinical psychology, and I have been playing chess since the summer after COVID, so the summer of 2020, which means it's been about 2 and a half years. Wow.
[00:05:16.91] [JJ Lang] Hi, my name is JJ. They/them or he/him pronouns. I am a chess teacher and do writing, editing stuff for the US Chess Federation. I've been playing chess most of my life.
[00:05:30.05] [Julia Rios] JJ and I just realized, hey, you are a professional chess teacher and an expert chess player, as much as you want to be humble about your experience, and I'm a professional psychologist, so we've got a pretty good duo here.
[00:05:45.13] [Mellow electronic music plays]
[00:05:45.96] [Ryan] Last episode, we focused a lot on how sexism hurts women in chess. But the thing about misogyny is that even though women are the most obvious victims, it actually ends up hurting everyone. Here's JJ.
[00:06:02.22] [JJ Lang] One of the reasons I lost interest in chess when I was late teenager, in my 20s, was it felt like a space where there were a lot of very emotionally suppressed and repressed men. And, I mean, that's like most spaces. But it was frustrating feeling like there was nobody to talk about these, like, very deeply emotional or sometimes painful experiences that I was having and seeing other people have, but also feeling like no one had the tools to either explain what they were feeling or a community around sharing with that. And just thinking how one of the reasons I wanted to get back into chess was feeling like I was at a point in my life where I could envision myself as somebody who could actively try and shape or create the way spaces look.
[00:06:43.00] [Playful music plays]
[00:06:43.68] [Jess] We just barely scratched the surface of some great interviews last episode. So, of course, Fiona, Lile, and Emilia are all back for a second round.
[00:06:54.78] [Fiona Steil-Antoni] My name is Fiona Steil-Antoni. My chess title is Woman International Master, and I'm calling from home. I'm home in Luxembourg.
[00:07:04.35] [Lile Koridze] I am Lile Koridze from Georgia. I'm 22 years old, and I am a Woman FIDE Master.
[00:07:11.77] [Emilia Castelao] My name is Emilia Castelao, and I am currently the President of the Women in Chess Foundation, and am also a Master's student at the Diplomatic Academy studying chess history.
[00:07:21.15] [Melodic saxophone music plays]
[00:07:21.63] [Ryan] We don't want to rehash our whole last episode. Feel free to go back and listen to it if you can't remember. What you need to keep in mind for this part 2 is that sexism in chess ranges from fairly subtle microaggressions to blatant criminal acts that jeopardize the safety and livelihoods of women who play the sport. And, again, it's just supposed to be a board game.
[00:07:46.11] [Jess] Just like last time, we're going to try and get out of the way as much as possible, because no one knows this story better than these players themselves. We're not done talking about why being a woman in chess is so hard and what needs to change if there's going to be any hope for the future of the game. There's already steps being taken to try and tip the scales, but there needs to be more spotlight and more support if there's going to be any real shot at making a difference.
[00:08:15.97] [Ryan] We're going to hear more about the Women in Chess Foundation later this episode. But to get the ball rolling, we were really inspired hearing Emilia talk about why exactly she and her co-founder, Mr Dodgy, thought that chess needed some serious changes.
[00:08:31.93] [Emilia Castelao] The inspiration really came from Jennifer Shahade and when she came out with her story about Alejandro Ramirez back in March of last year. Me and Mr Dodgy, a.k.a. @ChessProblem on Twitter, we've been really good friends since we met in Sitges in December of 2022, and when that story came out, we were just so angry. Like, we knew about what was going on in the chess world. A lot of I think what happens is an open secret just because the chess world is so small, but also at the same time, we were like, why is no one doing anything about this? It's truly just, like, enraging. And so we were just like, let's do something about it. Like, let's just rock the chess world on its head and, you know, start something that's just for women to make sure that they have a space where they can go to and, you know, come to us, like, with their problems, and we can help them find a solution. Because we know the chess world and, like, we know how to navigate it, and so we can help them.
[00:09:34.39] [Sighs]
[00:09:34.79] There are definitely bad actors everywhere, and there are a lot of institutions in the chess world that just have not taken a stance on this issue, or will focus on other things except this, like, one glaring problem that really desperately needs to get fixed. Addressing things from a top-down level is extremely important, but also how do we get the community itself engaged in this problem and make them want to fix it?
[00:10:01.14] [Upbeat piano music plays]
[00:10:01.37] [Jess] Last episode, we talked about two men in particular who have come to represent a lack of progress in the sport, to say the least. But Alejandro Ramirez and Ilya Smirin are by no means the only men in the history of chess who have expressed sexist views about women. Take one of the greatest players of all time, colloquially known as our boy Bobby on this podcast.
[00:10:27.45] [Bobby Fischer] The women aren't really very good players. I mean, I guess I could give every one of them a knight and still win easily.
[00:10:33.86] [reporter] Why is this? Do women make bad chess players?
[00:10:36.27] [Bobby Fischer] Oh, they're terrible chess players. I mean, some are better than others, you know? But I don't know why. I guess they're just not so smart.
[00:10:44.64] [He laughs]
[00:10:45.43] [reporter] Does this apply to all women, do you think?
[00:10:47.29] [Bobby Fischer] Well, I guess so. I don't know. They have never turned out a good woman chess player, never one that could ever stand up against a man in the history of chess.
[00:10:57.49] [reporter] Do you enjoy playing against women?
[00:10:59.12] [Bobby Fischer] No, I've never played a woman in a tournament game.
[00:11:01.54] [reporter] Would you?
[00:11:02.56] [Bobby Fischer] I'd play them, but I don't think they'd want to play me.
[00:11:06.03] [He laughs]
[00:11:06.34] [Jess] Ten years later, though, Fischer would sing a different tune.
[00:11:12.55] [reporter] Do you think chess is a sexist game?
[00:11:15.88] [Bobby Fischer] I don't think it is at all. I'd welcome some girls in chess.
[00:11:19.00] [reporter] I mean, have any tried to enter the competition?
[00:11:21.38] [Bobby Fischer] Well, there was at Lisa Lane. By the way, you said-- I think you said she was dead or something. She's around.
[00:11:25.85] [reporter] Oh, I'm
[00:11:26.53] [Audience laughs]
[00:11:27.01] [Bobby Fischer] Yeah.
[00:11:29.89] [reporter] I certainly apologize to her. No, I had a note that she-- I assumed she was back in the 19th century, for some reason or something. Lisa Lane.
[00:11:37.12] [Bobby Fischer] She's alive.
[00:11:38.20] [reporter] Sure that was news to her then.
[00:11:40.65] [Audience laughs]
[00:11:42.88] [reporter] But have they entered competition?
[00:11:44.62] [Bobby Fischer] Yeah, there were-- there was one very famous one, Vera Menchik from Hungary. And the best one now is Nona-- no, no-- Yeah, right, Nona Gaprindashvili of the Soviet Union. And she is a very good player. And she plays with men now. Plays in tournaments with men.
[00:12:00.17] [reporter] And there's no discrimination against her and--?
[00:12:02.20] [Bobby Fischer] No, chess is wide open. We don't have amateurs. We don't have discrimination with women. Anybody, kids. You know, I played when I was a kid. Everybody is welcome. Old people, everyone.
[00:12:10.37] [Mellow electronic music plays]
[00:12:11.35] [Ryan] Garry Kasparov-- yes, that Kasparov-- who was the first World Champion to lose to the IBM chess computer Deep Blue-- listen to the cheating episode if you want to hear more about that-- has also publicly made sexist remarks about the inferiority of women chess players. This quote is from the November 1989 issue of Playboy.
[00:12:33.68] Quote, "Well, in the past, I have said that there is real chess and women's chess. Some people don't like to hear this, but chess does not fit women properly. It's a fight, you know, a big fight. It's not for women. Sorry. She's helpless if she has men's opposition. I think this is very simple logic. It's the logic of a fighter, a professional fighter. Women are weaker fighters. There is also the aspect of creativity in chess. You have to create new ideas. That's quite difficult, too. Chess is the combination of sport, art, and science. In all these fields, you can see men's superiority. Just compare the sexes in literature, in music, or in art. The result is, you know, obvious. Probably the answer is in the genes," end quote.
[00:13:25.79] [Mellow electronic music plays]
[00:13:26.24] He later recanted this statement after Grandmaster Judit Polgar beat him in 2002, becoming the first woman to ever beat a World Champion. The sad truth about chess is that not enough women play it. And, in fact, there's lots of women and girls who quit chess not because they don't love the sport, but because they don't see a place for them in the culture.
[00:13:50.73] [Jess] And even men taking back misogynistic comments doesn't erase the wrongs of them having been sexist in the first place. Here's Lile.
[00:14:02.12] [Lile Koridze] What I really hear when there's a group of guys and what they speak about some women players, what do they do, it kind of makes me feel like I don't want to be next to them. I don't even want to speak with them, because I don't really know what they are going to say. Even though I don't do anything else, I'm just speaking or I just want to be friendly. Then they complain. Why don't want any woman, them, like, to socialize or speak with them, or answer their DMs or something, because it's the reason. I mean, it's the problem is you, because you speak so badly about them. And that makes me, like, that I don't want to go out. I don't even want to be friendly with them. I just want to, like, be at my home in my room and just go and play chess, or speak with them in the playing hall.
[00:14:48.11] So that's the biggest problem. If they change this mentality that women are not, like, just a decoration and stuff like this, then I think it will be easier for us to socialize with these guys. But, of course, I don't mean all of them, but I still have these kind of trust issues, you know? If you, like, listen once, twice, third time and stuff, and God knows what they speak behind and stuff. So it's-- it's kind of not pleasant.
[00:15:15.93] [Sinister synth music plays]
[00:15:16.97] [Jess] We keep saying it's not that every man in the sport feels this way about women, and maybe that's because we ourselves feel like we need to be apologetic enough to not get cancelled.
[00:15:30.93] [Ryan] What do you mean, we have to be apologetic?
[00:15:33.11] [Jess] Well, you might not have experienced this, but it's really easy for women to get labelled as man haters as soon as you start trying to talk about sexism and misogyny.
[00:15:44.54] [Ryan] It kind of defeats the purpose when you have to clarify that you're not throwing every single man who plays chess under the bus. "Not all men" takes attention away from the fact that we ARE talking about men who are abusing women and making the space unsafe. Even just saying "not all men" is a red flag for internalized misogyny, which even the two of us who are trying to think critically about this exact topic are not exempt from.
[00:16:16.30] [Mellow electronic music plays]
[00:16:16.68] [Jess] That's the patriarchy, baby.
[00:16:18.67] [Ryan chuckles]
[00:16:19.08] [Ryan] I think that's actually FIDE's new tagline.
[00:16:21.30] [Jess] So, yeah, even we fall victim to the rhetoric of sexism. And so do you, dear listener. And so do some of the, quote, good guys in chess-- even the ones who think women in the sport deserve better. That's how the patriarchy works. It inherently prioritizes the male experience, so you need to continuously unlearn that way of operating in order to make room for equality.
[00:16:47.55] [Ryan] So what does questioning the patriarchy actually look like in the chess world? Well, here's an interview from Magnus Carlsen in the aftermath of the Queen's Gambit becoming popular on Netflix.
[00:17:00.84] [reporter] Have you seen a shift in the number of female players over the last few years, and do you think this might help bring more women into the game?
[00:17:08.49] [Magnus Carlsen] I think she can certainly be a role model for-- for women and girls who want to play chess. I would say that, in general, overall, chess has not been that kind to women. I don't believe there are any, like, underlying genetic circumstances or anything that should make men better players. But, as I said, the environment has not been great towards-- towards women. I certainly hope this will help. And from my experience, travelling around the world, I've seen that at a young age, there's really not that much of a difference between boys and girls. Like, girls are as fascinated and as interested in chess as boys are. So hopefully this will-- will spark a bit of a revival there.
[00:18:09.37] [Mellow electronic music plays]
[00:18:09.70] [Jess] And here's another example. In January of this year, following the conclusion of one of the most well-regarded tournaments in elite chess, Tata Steel, 18-year-old Indian International Master Divya Deshmukh called out sexism in chess in an Instagram post.
[00:18:26.83] Quote, "I have been wanting to address this for a while, but was waiting for my tournament to be over. I got told and also noticed how women in chess are often just taken for granted by spectators. The most recent example of this on a personal level would be in this tournament, I played a few games which I felt were quite good and I was proud of them. I got told by people how the audience was not even bothered with the game, but instead focused on every single possible thing in the world-- my clothes, hair, accent, and every other irrelevant thing. I was quite upset to hear this, and I think it is the sad truth that when women play chess, people often overlook how good they are, the games they play, and their strength. I was quite disappointed to see how everything was discussed in my interviews by the audience except my games.
[00:19:19.48] Very few people paid attention to it, and it is quite a sad thing. I felt it was unfair in a way, because if I go to any guy's interview, there would be way less judgement on a personal level, actual compliments about the game and the player. I feel women are underappreciated and every irrelevant thing is focused on and hated on while guys would probably get away with the same things. I think women face this daily, and I'm barely 18. I have faced so much judgement, including hatred over the years for things that don't even matter. I think women should start getting equal respect," end quote.
[00:20:00.45] [Playful music plays]
[00:20:00.85] [Ryan] This post prompted the former Women's World Chess Champion Susan Polgar to detail her decades of experience with sexism in chess. In a tweet titled Why I Chose to Look Ugly and the Reasoning Behind It, she wrote the following.
[00:20:16.81] Quote, "I read what Divya Deshmukh wrote about her recent, horrible experience. It is absolutely terrible," end quote. She also linked to an article that she had written over a decade ago about her own experiences. Here's an excerpt.
[00:20:32.35] Quote, "When I was a young chess player, I consciously tried to look as plain and unattractive as possible. I never even touched makeup until I was in my 20s. Most people never knew why. I never really talked about it. It is because I was tired of being sexually harassed/assaulted and hit on constantly by male chess players. I was often the only girl in all men chess tournaments. In fact, FIDE severely punished me by taking away my world number one ranking for choosing to play only against men at that time. I was the only woman in chess history to be brutally punished for wanting to play and beat male chess players.
[00:21:14.33] And the behaviour of some of these male chess players was absolutely appalling. It sometimes became very dangerous. I was many times fearful for my life. Some male chess players cannot take no for an answer, especially when they had too much to drink. Some tried to physically and sexually assault me. I wanted to prove myself on the board. I could not care less what people think about how I looked. I was not there to pick up men. I was very thankful that my parents, especially my mother, were always with me at tournaments to try to protect me. It is better today, but still bad at times. Knowing what I had to go through and the heavy price I had to pay, I would still do it again. It is a fight worth taking on for countless girls and women out there around the world," end quote.
[00:22:07.42] [Melodic saxophone music plays]
[00:22:08.35] [Jess] Long story short, sexism comes in many forms, and some of it is more apparent than others, like predators targeting young girls. But all of it matters, and all of it needs to be taken seriously. Here's Emilia again.
[00:22:26.06] [Emilia Castelao] Like, I know that Magnus is, like, the number one chess player, and his role in the chess world is really important. But, like, you don't even get that kind of equality and equal attention with, like, the Women's Chess Champion. Like, I want to see a Ju Wenjun Puma shoe. Like--
[00:22:42.85] [She chuckles]
[00:22:43.61] It's something so, like, small I feel like that people might not notice when they're consuming chess content, but when you see it, you can't stop seeing it.
[00:22:54.20] [Sinister synth music plays]
[00:22:54.47] [Ryan] If you don't know who Emilia is talking about here, it's the current Women's World Chess Champion Ju Wenjun. Ju Wenjun was also the subject of a viral video that was shot at the opening ceremony of the 2023 World Rapid and Blitz Chess Championship. In it, you see her seated next to Magnus. And remember, at this point, Magnus has already forfeited his World Championship title, so she actually holds a higher title than him. But that doesn't stop a group of fans from asking her to move so that they can take pictures sitting in her seat next to Magnus, forcing her to stand awkwardly to the side. Not only that: when the photos are done, someone else sits down in her chair and starts talking to Magnus. The clip ends with Ju Wenjun laughing in disbelief. She's the highest-titled women's player in the entire world, and even she isn't respected.
[00:23:52.39] [Upbeat, playful music plays]
[00:23:52.84] [Jess] We've already spent more time this episode than we wanted to talking about men in chess, because they get enough attention. This episode, we want to talk about and to some of the changemakers of the present in women's chess. And by the way, the fact that anybody in the chess world was willing to speak to us about this is incredibly brave. Almost everyone we spoke to expressed doubts about whether this was the right thing to do, because the reality is that speaking out about this issue is not without risk. As a woman in chess, you're already more likely to experience harassment and abuse. But as we've already seen from things like Jen Shahade's departure from US Women's Chess, the sport is especially unkind to women who rock the boat.
[00:24:42.26] [Mellow electronic music plays]
[00:24:42.70] [Ryan] The women we've spoken to about this issue have all acknowledged that there's a chance their statements could end up having negative impacts on their careers, but that they want to talk anyways. They have all invariably said that this is too important to not talk about-- even if they do get punished for it later-- and that they're tired of having to stay silent. So we just really want to commend them for speaking up and to encourage others to do the same if they feel able to do so.
[00:25:14.45] [Jess] We said earlier that sexism in chess isn't always a huge controversy. In fact, sometimes it's not even readily apparent. A lot of the problems with chess culture aren't taking place in a huge public stage, the way we saw with Fiona and Ilya. Some of it is embedded into the daily interactions that anyone on any chess site could be subjected to. Here's Julia and JJ.
[00:25:40.76] [Julia Rios] It's been a while since I made the mistake of having a picture of myself as my chess.com profile and having chat open. I've learned you can do one of those things, but you can't do both.
[00:25:51.75] [Chuckles]
[00:25:52.28] So I just in my chess.com settings have chat disabled so someone can't try to message me anything, which made me feel really sad at first. I just found you cannot have a picture of yourself and have your chat open to strangers. Whatever you think men would say to you, honestly, I found it to be ten times more horrific. I mean, threats about wanting to sexually assault me. Like, things I just can't even imagine saying to another person, I was experiencing on a daily basis.
[00:26:22.24] [Ryan] But sometimes it is bigger things, too, like trying to start up a constructive conversation about sexism in your community.
[00:26:30.26] [Julia Rios] But it is interesting how any time I try to talk about it online or point it out, I will receive a large number of men telling me that there is no sexism in chess. So, I mean, I definitely wouldn't say, oh, it's a thing that we all agree on, but it does seem fairly obvious.
[00:26:51.19] [JJ Lang] I think there's absolutely raging misogynists in chess. What's worrisome is that for every raging misogynist, there's probably dozens, if not hundreds of men who play chess, who vaguely agree that, like, it would be cool if those raging misogynists weren't such raging misogynists, but also, like, take utter offence at the suggestion that anything they do or could do would make the chess space less safe for women. Or even the idea that, like, the reason more women don't play chess is because there's any problems with the space as a whole, and not just with, like, this one bad individual. And I think my favourite explanation that I see for this, which comes in quite a lot-- the argument goes, chess isn't sexist because there's misogyny everywhere. Which is weird, because you'd think that's an argument for chess being misogynist. But apparently it means that because these are problems that exist outside of chess, putting a focus on chess is unfair-- question mark?-- or expecting chess to be better is unrealistic-- question mark? Saying that this sort of behaviour is why more women aren't in chess is a bad argument because this sort of behaviour exists everywhere, so why would it be chess in particular?
[00:28:06.66] [Julia Rios] Yeah, I feel like in these really male-heavy spaces, it actually does lead to a propensity for more of these sexist dynamics. Maybe it's not something about the board game itself, but no one's really trying to make that argument. So I feel like it just really sidesteps the issue of, is there misogyny in chess? A lot of women are trying to be really vocal and say, yes, and here's how I've experienced it. So coming in with this argument of, well, you'll see that everywhere.
[00:28:33.94] [Sombre electronic music plays]
[00:28:34.31] [Jess] You heard from Lile at the top of this episode, recounting a particularly infuriating encounter with a male teammate. But it's not the only encounter she's had with men being shitty, especially since she's also a streamer, not just an OTB player.
[00:28:54.53] [Lile Koridze] Sometimes it happens when, like, some people join and they're like, "Go back to kitchen. Why are you streaming?"
[00:29:00.57] [Chuckles nervously]
[00:29:01.07] "Why are you wearing this thing?" when I'm just simply wearing some random hoodie or, like, shirt. Why do you do that? Why do you do this? I mean, "You are just pretty. That's why you play chess." Something, like, really ridiculous stuff. Of course, if I was a guy, of course, it would be easier, because they treat guys as, like, some, like, smartest people and girls, like, only just pretty.
[00:29:24.78] And what I experienced, as well, when, like, I was communicating with these kind of men, like, over-the-board chess players, they were like, "We can't stream because we are not women and we are not-- we won't get treated well," and stuff. And so big jealousy towards women streamers and towards women in general. Like, dude, if you work a lot, there are tonnes of top chess streamers who are men. Like, I think most of them are men. We think account, GothamChess, Hikaru, Daniel Naroditsky, IM Rosen. I mean, it's really, really sexist in a way to speak like this, and it's really hard.
[00:30:01.01] I hate, like, because you are a girl. Because you are a girl. Because you're a girl. Not, like, because I beat Grandmasters online. It literally destroys your hard work, which you put so many hours every day. Lately, women became more and more active in chess. But, still, it will take so much time for women to become equal in chess with men. Don't say that we are just the girls.
[00:30:22.98] [Sinister synth music plays]
[00:30:24.23] [Ryan] Here's another example of what women have to face playing in chess tournaments with men. This is women FIDE Master and chess content creator anna Cramling discussing with Levy Rozman a.k.a. GothamChess, about her experience of the predatory behaviour she's faced from men in chess.
[00:30:43.42] [Anna Cramling] The person that I've played against has, like, sent me a message and be like, hey, I was thinking about all these things while we were playing the game today, and then, and, you know, and then, you know, brings up sexual stuff or whatever. And--
[00:30:56.10] [Levy Rozman] Wait, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I thought it was going to be, like, they thought about, like, chess moves.
[00:30:59.79] [Anna Cramling] No, no, no. Levy, you were supposed to take the hint!
[00:31:03.15] [Laughs]
[00:31:03.86] [Levy Rozman] Oh, my God. No, no. So what I thought is, like, they were too shy to talk to you during the game or after, so they--
[00:31:10.08] [Anna Cramling] No, no, no, no, no. So-- so, yeah.
[00:31:14.25] [Laughs]
[00:31:14.92] [Levy Rozman] Wait, Anna, I'm not a mathematician, but if you stopped playing in 2019, doesn't that mean that literally every one of these stories you were not even like, of age?
[00:31:24.33] [Anna Cramling] Mmm-hmm, you are right.
[00:31:26.14] [Levy Rozman] Oh, my God. No, no, no, no, no. With your parents at the tournament, too? This is-- oh, no!
[00:31:31.80] [Anna Cramling] My parents were at the tournament, too. I haven't told them. I don't think they know about this, though. And that's just one part of it.
[00:31:38.54] [Gloomy synth music plays]
[00:31:39.19] [Jess] Okay, firstly, it's crazy to me that Levy didn't pick up on what Anna was putting down. I knew immediately what she was referencing. But this is something else that we've stumbled upon in our research for this set of episodes.
[00:31:53.15] [Ryan] Yeah, I've been completely flabbergasted this entire journey at the horrible behaviour of men, and then flabbergasted all over again that you haven't been shocked really at all.
[00:32:06.19] [Jess] I mean, I was a bit surprised to learn about the degree of what women in chess face. And some of the testimonies we've gathered have been shocking to me. But on the whole, there's been lots of times where I can't understand why you're so caught off guard. I don't want this to be normal, but it's not like I don't expect it. There's mostly men in this sport, and women aren't treated very equitably. And the way that math shakes out in my own personal lived experience as a woman is that men are probably taking advantage of that. Here's Emilia.
[00:32:46.34] [Emilia Castelao] I will say that there are a lot of people who hear things about someone that they've played chess with their whole lives and they go, "No way. That person never could. Like, I've known them for years. Like, they never would do something like that." Like, that's what also happened with Alejandro, you know? It's, like, people were like, "No, I've known him forever. Like, he could never do that." But at the end of the day, like, you don't know anyone. And I tell the advocates this in my training program, I'm like, you have to be careful, because statistically when things like this happen, it's someone you know. Like, it's never a stranger. It's never, you know, someone coming in from the outside. It's someone who's a part of your community who is charming and likable. And it's sad that that is that way. But it's a part of the institutions, as well. And it's, like, not only US Chess, but other institutions just, like, perpetuate this idea that, you know, it is The victim's fault. And it's not. And it's so hard because you just want to, like, shake them and be like, "Can you please just be empathetic for five minutes towards this person who had a horrible experience?"
[00:33:57.59] [Gloomy music plays]
[00:34:05.44] [Ryan] I think by now, after hearing about countless ways in which men in the chess community have abused and/or taken advantage of women, we can start to empathize more with any woman chess player. Men can be dangerous. It takes so much willpower, and strength, and determination to persevere when that voice in the back of your head is constantly reminding you of that danger.
[00:34:36.00] [Gloomy music plays]
[00:34:36.49] [Jess] This is part of the bigger picture of why there's an underrepresentation of women in chess. According to Grandmaster Dr. David Smerdon, girls drop out at faster rates than boys at all ages, and the dropout rate is especially severe after age 16. I don't think that's any coincidence, because the teen years are when women are most likely to be targeted by men. We've already heard that from Anna Cramling, Divya Deshmukh, and countless others.
[00:35:08.02] [Ryan] But it doesn't have to be this way. The participation stats for women in chess are markedly better when you look at streaming as compared to OTB. The fact that women are almost at parity for streaming proves that they are participating at a higher rate online. Seven out of the top 20 earning streamers in chess are women. Zero out of the top 100 highest-rated OTB players are women. Chess online might just be a safer space for women. Here's Julia.
[00:35:40.22] [Julia Rios] A lot of really kind, supportive voices, and also a lot of really safe community definitely helped me not feel like, okay, I don't want to explore this space or engage with chess whatsoever. I felt like I had a lot more agency in how I was able to carve out the spaces and form relationships with the people that I wanted online in a way that I don't feel in person or over the board.
[00:36:03.63] [Jess] Lile is both a chess player and a streamer. We're going to hear more about her thoughts on streaming in another episode, but here's what she had to say about how her experience in the chess world has been informed by both OTB and online.
[00:36:18.96] [Lile Koridze] I can ban anyone on Twitch if they disrespect me, and in one second, not even thinking about that. And, yeah, in classical chess, you can't really do it, because these people are in real life, and either you need to, like, move away from these people, try to be distant, or try to argue. And arguing is kind of like making you feel drained. And so, it's not a great solution. So better to, like, move-- move on from this kind of people.
[00:36:46.24] [Sinister synth music plays]
[00:36:46.56] [Jess] You know that adage that men on a first date are most scared of being embarrassed or not being liked, and women are scared that they're going to get murdered? Well, it's the same in chess.
[00:37:00.78] [Lile Koridze] I don't want it to happen to me. And it's really hard, I know, to be a woman in especially a male-dominated field. But same time, we need to, all of them, we need to learn how to take care of us, how to be cautious and stuff. I know if I go with this many guys and if I get drunk, there will be some things which I won't like, because that's the reality. So either I should go with other girls as well to, like, lean on them, or just don't go. And if you say these kind of things, you are getting blamed as being sexist. And that's not sexist. That's the reality. You know, don't go out. Don't be, like, in private places, and then you will get less chance. So, yeah, just I want to tell girls to be cautious and don't, like, be around these guys because you want their attention or something else. No, that's not worth it. Your mental health, and your future, and your career-- it really is not worth it.
[00:37:54.31] [Playful music plays]
[00:37:54.72] [Jess] So to recap-- in general, the women we talked to weren't so impacted by their gender that it stopped them from playing chess. But it makes you wonder how, much better could they be playing if they weren't also worried about all these other things? Why does it have to be this way, and what needs to change? Here's Fiona.
[00:38:22.37] [Fiona Steil-Antoni] You know, when you're a kid, you don't think so much about, oh, what are other girls' experiences, you know? You're just having fun. And obviously as I grew older, I saw a lot more of these issues, and I heard a lot more stories. And so I think the people need to be just held responsible, as well. I think that's very important. I think a big thing is that for many, many years, this old men's club, unfortunately, there were quite a lot of men in positions of power who felt they can get away with-- I don't want to say everything, but pretty close to everything.
[00:39:05.34] I think it's important that, you know, these people understand, like, they can't keep doing this. And, you know, for a while, some people, I thought, surely they're going to fall. Like, a few years ago, I was telling my friends, like, their time has to come. And I'm sure it will come soon, because in some cases, I heard, you know, so many different sources about the same person. And I was like, this person will be brought down. And in a lot of cases, unfortunately, these people are still there. So we've still got a long way to go.
[00:39:51.55] The fact that more and more women feel comfortable to speak out, there's unfortunately still so many with stories that have never been told.
[00:40:02.02] [Jess] Here's JJ.
[00:40:03.76] [JJ Lang] I can't count how many times I've heard women say something like, "Oh, yeah, my dad played, but he never taught me," or "Yeah, my grandpa taught my brothers, but they didn't teach me." Obviously, that's anecdotal, but I think the reason why I've caught that is it definitely tracks this perception of somebody somewhere down the line has coded certain interests as, like, more appropriate for boys than girls based on all sorts of things at a young age. And it's just led to, like, people being like, "I think I might have liked that, but I never learned." And then the next level up is, "Well, I did learn, and then I went to the club at my school, and it was all boys, so I didn't come back," or "I went there and it was a lot of girls, but the boys were kind of mean, and the girls eventually kind of drifted off, and then by the time we were all hitting puberty, the boys were getting creepy, and then I stopped coming back." So there's just a lot of social reasons at every step.
[00:41:02.70] And I know that there's research on representation and the idea of, like, what you think of a chess player being, or who can be a chess player can influence whether or not it's something you would really even want to take seriously or do, and I imagine that that has a reinforcing effect. So you have, like, almost all of the top players throughout history have been men, so your picture of what a top chess player looks like is a man, so the thought of getting into chess just doesn't occur to you. And then the result is so many more men compete than women that the odds of women being in that, like, top 100 are so small just because of the numbers being so skewed heavily towards men, that it has this terrible loop effect.
[00:41:43.55] [Playful music plays]
[00:41:43.81] [Jess] One of the major changes that's already started to bring about positive impacts on the chess world is the establishment of the Women in Chess Foundation. Take it away, Emilia!
[00:41:56.08] [Cheerful music plays]
[00:41:56.99] [Emilia Castelao] This podcast is listened to by Emilia, the Women in Chess Foundation President. The Women in Chess Foundation's mission essentially is to empower women and also make chess safer for everyone. We are working right now on two big projects. The first one is advocacy training. So we are training people in the chess world, from arbiters to moms of kids who play chess, on how to help women or anyone who has experienced misconduct in the chess world. As well, we have been working with a bunch of chess federations on changing safe play guidelines and making them not only more inclusive, but also just more preventative, and having actual things in place for people who want to report misconduct.
[00:42:46.19] You can support us by going to our website womeninchess.com and becoming an advocate. We have advocacy trainings at least once a month. If advocacy training is not your style, then donating to the Women in Chess Foundation is always really great. All of the proceeds that we get go directly back into Women in Chess, in helping put advocates at tournaments, or supporting, you know, upcoming young girls in chess. We have a lot of lofty goals that we're trying to accomplish, so any penny helps.
[00:43:20.28] Anyone should become an advocate. We really want there to be a wide range of people who are advocates, whether it's, you know, moms taking their kids to chess tournaments, or if you're just a local club player who goes to, you know, weekly chess meetings.
[00:43:38.89] [Cheerful music plays]
[00:43:39.29] Advocacy is for everyone. There's really space for everyone in our advocacy program. And even if you're a man, we welcome you, you know? It's really important to have a full spectrum of representation in our advocates program. Follow Women in Chess at Women in Chess on Twitter and Instagram.
[00:43:59.46] [Music fades]
[00:43:59.96] [Comical slide whistle plays]
[00:44:02.44] [Ryan] Wow, what a great ad! Rooked is a really high-budget production. And you know how we manage to make such a good show with such a small team? Well, it's thanks to listeners like you.
[00:44:15.57] [Comical slide whistle plays]
[00:44:17.52] [Cheerful music plays]
[00:44:18.01] Did you know that Rooked: The Cheaters' Gambit is an indie podcast?
[00:44:22.19] [Jess] Indie as in independent. We don't receive any sponsorship support. Ryan and I make Rooked in our spare time for free.
[00:44:29.57] [Ryan] And don't get us wrong. We love getting to make this podcast exactly the way we want to. But we've been thinking that maybe with some support we could make this show even better.
[00:44:39.34] [Tim Robinson] I got to figure out how to make money on this thing. It's simply too good.
[00:44:43.49] [Jess] So, like many creators, we've joined Patreon.
[00:44:46.85] [Ryan] Can I just ask, what is Patreon?
[00:44:49.48] [Jess] Great question, Ryan. Patreon is a way for fans to join and engage with their favourite creators' community. Basically, it's a platform that allows you to support creators financially. Currently, we have two tiers open: the Pawn level, if you want to support us for 5 Canadian dollars a month-- cheaper than mailing us an envelope of loonies and toonies-- and the King level, for $20 per month. If you choose to support us at the King tier, we'll also mention you by name in the episode credits. And if you support us at any level on Patreon, you'll also be able to access bonus content.
[00:45:23.06] [Ryan] Patreon looks like they stole their logo directly from Target.
[00:45:26.62] [Jess] You are the only person I've ever had to describe Patreon to, so I don't really trust your judgement here, honestly.
[00:45:33.33] [Cheerful music plays]
[00:45:33.70] But that's a good point. If you want to support us but monthly donations don't fit your budget, you can also buy us a coffee instead at buymeacoffee.com/rooked. Or we also really appreciate ratings, reviews, and shares, too. And those are free.
[00:45:48.53] [Ryan] We love making this podcast, and our motivation is listeners like you, so we really appreciate your support at any level.
[00:45:56.51] [Jess] Go to patreon.com/rooked to support the podcast. That's patreon.com/rooked. Thanks for listening.
[00:46:06.66] [Comical slide whistle plays]
[00:46:09.55] [Jess] Wow, I can't believe we ran two ads back to back. We're a real podcast now. Okay, back to the Women in Chess Foundation.
[00:46:17.22] [Playful music plays]
[00:46:17.59] [Ryan] After learning about what the Women in Chess Foundation is, which you should also know now after listening to our delightful ad roll, we wanted to hear from Emilia why she thought it was important to start it in the first place.
[00:46:30.74] [Emilia Castelao] Chess is such an old sport. It's been around forever. The demographics didn't really grow up addressing this kind of problem. And so, now that it's here, there's actually a lot of people who do want to fix the problem. They just don't know where to start, or they don't know how they can be helpful. And I think that that's kind of where we wanted to focus, is saying, okay, yeah, there's this problem, and we'll teach you how to fix it. We'll teach you how to be supportive. We'll teach you how to engage in your community in a way that's beneficial for everyone, and how to support someone and navigate them through this system that is extremely confusing. And so, we definitely wanted to not only address it from the top down, because we are working with national federations to address this problem, but also get the community engaged, as well. So coming at it from both directions I think is really important.
[00:47:20.64] There's always going to be bad people out there, but I think if you can educate people on how to spot them and how to prevent something from happening, or just how to move forward after something happens, that can be really powerful in giving people kind of their autonomy back in a community that I think has not had a lot of autonomy.
[00:47:42.46] [Playful music plays]
[00:47:42.77] [Ryan] Another thing that the Women in Chess Foundation advocates for is the marketing and media support of women chess players.
[00:47:50.12] [Emilia Castelao] This was actually Dodgy's kind of vision in that, obviously, it's really important to promote safety at events to empower women, but also at the same time, one thing we noticed is that the chess community in the way that, like, chess marketed its players was really different between men and women. Like, when it comes to men, I could tell you so many of Magnus Carlsen's hobbies, like, outside of chess. Like, you know, he loves basketball. When it came to, like, women, though, we didn't really get to know much about them. And so, it was really important for us to not only work on these safe play guidelines with federations, but also tell them, especially at very high-level tournaments, when we were working with them, to say, when you do interviews with women, ask them questions outside of chess. Like, let us get to know them like we get to male chess players. And so, changing the way that we market female chess players and build up their brand is also really important to us, because, like, that is how you have a sustainable, long-term kind of marketing strategy when it comes to players, like getting to know them. Have people be emotionally invested in them. So that's something that was really important to us.
[00:49:07.68] [Mellow electronic music plays]
[00:49:08.18] [Jess] Social platforms are a hot-button topic in more than just chess, especially around the issue of accountability for bad actors. People love to throw around the term "cancel culture." It usually has a negative connotation, something around the mass cancelling or withdrawal of support from public figures when they're deemed to have acted inappropriately. If you want to know more about this, then you should really subscribe to our Patreon, because our monthly bonus is a dissection of a chess thought piece that argues against cancel culture in chess as a way of intellectualizing and validating misogyny.
[00:49:45.18] [Ryan] Personally, we're fans of using social media to increase accountability for bad behaviour, especially since it can signal to others where they can find safe spaces and allies. Here's how JJ uses social space online to increase inclusivity, but also how these signals can end up being a target for hate speech, too.
[00:50:09.11] [JJ Lang] In my lichess profile, I have the rainbow flag as my flag, and my pronouns as they/them. And I've had multiple players just, like, ask in chat, like, "Why do you do that?" And once it was actually somebody who was queer and looking for a queer community, and that was dope. But it's usually-- at this point, I just don't respond. And I remember, like, being really bummed, like, with people trying to just, like, say all sorts of shit just based off of that. And I know no shortage of women who play chess whose profile photo on chess.com is their cat, not themselves, or a stock photo, or no photo. And just being like, yeah, okay, that's a glimpse firsthand into the kind of shit.
[00:50:50.83] [Sinister synth music plays]
[00:50:51.97] [Jess] Social media is as likely to be a hotbed for sexist comments as it is to be used as a tool to combat misogyny. And for women in chess, it's been a space that's been used as a way to prevent and call out bad behaviour that previously had gone unnoticed-- or maybe noticed, but swept under the rug. Just look at the fateful tweet that finally brought Jen Shahade's account of abuse into the light after repeatedly being silenced. Jen has helped pave the way for others to find justice that they'd previously been denied. And the result is that men are on notice, and seemingly they are behaving better. Here's Lile.
[00:51:33.73] [Lile Koridze] What I noticed that when I play lately in the tournament, it's for , me at least, it's not as much, you know, they try to do something because I think they know that I'm going to check-- get to my Twitter and write. I'm going to, like, publish what has happened. So I feel like nowadays it's really less this than it was before. So now I understand, as well, why they could not speak before, because it was not as common. It was not as like possible to cancel them on Twitter. So I understand that.
[00:52:05.45] [Playful music plays]
[00:52:05.75] [Ryan] Retribution by Twitter is basically what Jen Shahade did. And given the track record of having institutions listen to her before that, it seems like it really was the most feasible option. Plus, online communities can be helpful, too. Here's Julia.
[00:52:23.83] [Julia Rios] It really only has been in these really small scenarios when I've been pretty vocal about experiencing misogyny, then I end up experiencing more misogyny.
[00:52:35.54] [Chuckles]
[00:52:35.98] But I also just do feel like those experiences have been so vastly outweighed by so much support and kindness in the community that I didn't necessarily know whether or not to expect, which has been really, really nice. And I think that that is why it's so important in a lot of ways to be vocal online, especially in certain situations where I might not ordinarily. I don't always feel totally comfortable confronting the online hate, but I just see how important it is for those voices to sort of outweigh all of the vitriol out there. So while I definitely have experienced, honestly, just shocking things that I can't believe anyone would say to a stranger online, they just don't really feel quite as sticky with me because of how much support there also is.
[00:53:30.97] [Gloomy music plays]
[00:53:31.43] [Jess] Last episode, we mentioned the 2023 Experiences of Women in Chess Roundtable on chess.com, which you can find the link to in the show notes. It's an almost two-hour long video of women in the chess world, including Fiona, discussing topics like what we've been covering here. Honestly, it's a really good video and you should go watch it. But here's one of our favourite clips featuring WIM Ayelen Martinez.
[00:53:56.62] [Ayelen Martinez] It's linked with something that Jennifer said before. Like, it's okay that you didn't speak up about it. Like, I guess, like, yeah, it's like double pressure that we have. Like, we suffer this kind of situation, and also we have this pressure that, okay, we have to tell, or we don't have to, and what to do. And it's really awful. And actually, yeah, it's, like, double thing, and we are the victims and we have to be victims again to say the thing.
[00:54:22.08] And in that situation, again, I point to the Federation. We need, like, an official entity even monitoring the company. Like, you know, FIDE should also say, okay, if there's a business about chess, like chess.com, Chessable, chess24, like, also they should actually regulate a bit inside there, let's say, like, that touch a bit the chess world. Because they're supposed to be the official part. Shouldn't be like that.
[00:54:45.45] And the other thing I want to mention, in Chessable, we have two girls, Matilda, from France. Actually, she's a Woman Grandmaster. And also, well, there's a Department of Science in Chessable, and they've been doing a lot of research about the gender gap and everything. And now they are implementing-- Matilda and Sofia-- like, the inclusive language. That is something that you, Anna, were saying. Like, how we can change the perspective about women in chess levels and everything? And it's something that I never seen before and it's super revolutionary. And I'm, like-- I'm actually super grateful with the girls there with the work that they are doing. Because in some books you hear actually-- you read that they say, like, a chess master put his rooks always in an open file, for instance. His rooks, because it's not her rook. Like, it was always the chess master or the genius is going to be he. So it's always like the good player's always he, he, he.
[00:55:43.05] So it's necessary to change from the very bottom that part. And with this project that they are going to implement in Chessable, all the courses in Chessable, is like trying to have in the guidelines to put this inclusive language and start using they. So then it's, like, okay, like, a chess master is someone who plays really good. Could be-- could be men, could be a male player, but also could be a female player.
[00:56:05.76] [Gloomy music plays]
[00:56:06.02] [Ryan] It's hard to even comment on everything Ayelen said, because she just brings up so many important ideas. But one of my favourite points that she raises is how impactful representation is. These are the things we need to start thinking about and changing when we ask ourselves, how can we make chess more inclusive? But in chess, it's more than just women that are being left out of the conversation. Chess is, by the numbers, predominantly played by straight, cis men. Here's what JJ had to say in regards to diversification in chess and why they have a Commitment to Inclusivity page on their website.
[00:56:45.24] [JJ Lang] Because I think that the way to fight exclusionary spaces isn't by just being not a bigot, but by actively reflecting on how to make these spaces more inclusive and thinking about what skills or resources you have that you can offer to make that space a better space.
[00:57:04.14] And thinking about how a skill that I have as a coach is my patience, is I have a lot of experience with neurodiversity particularly, but also, like, myself, like, I'm a very anxious person, and I've seen how that affects my chess, and how that affects my results and ability to perform under pressure. And so, just, I know I bring a lot of empathy to those conversations and create a kind of space that could be really useful for people who are maybe trying to break in, but maybe didn't find these YouTube videos that are littered with misogynistic comments, or didn't find coaches who, like, even something as innocuous as, like, maybe just a coach uses he as a gender-neutral thing in their explanations, and you start to wonder if this is a person for you. And so, just knowing that I can do that and want to do that.
[00:57:53.69] And then also selfishly, if this is the space that I love and want to spend the rest of my life in, I want to spend it with people who I think are really cool. And that means people who probably have mostly felt alienated by a lot of the people in this space who aren't cool.
[00:58:10.62] [Chuckles]
[00:58:11.02] So I personally would like more people who I want to hang out with to get into chess.
[00:58:15.52] [Jess] Here's Emilia's take on inclusivity and the future of chess.
[00:58:19.90] [Emilia Castelao] In the next five years, I cannot see chess becoming a fully inclusive place. I think that we are still just so far behind in things that need to become more equitable, not only when it comes to protecting players, but also, like, the pay gap between men and women's chess, and in prize funds. And, you know, I don't think that in the near future there will be any kind of equality, as much as I think we are on the right path.
[00:58:55.29] When Dodgy and I kind of were brainstorming the Women in Chess Foundation, we wanted it to be something that was long lasting, that was something that was around for the next 10, 20 years, because that was honestly really our timeline in how long we thought it would take to have chess become equal, and have, like, the next, you know, Judit Polgar come into the scene. There are so many amazing young female chess players that are really just, you know, I think, going to turn the tide and be a part of chess becoming more equal. But I think that to get there, you know, we really need to have this culture shift in how we see women at the chess board.
[00:59:45.87] I think one story that I was told is this one mother, she brought her daughter to a chess tournament, and she, like, overheard the dad saying to the son, you know, "Oh, you're playing a girl. You'll be fine." And that needs to change. And not even change-- it needs to leave the building.
[01:00:07.13] Until we start seeing women as equal competitors across the board, chess will not become fully equal.
[01:00:16.14] [Playful music plays]
[01:00:16.53] [Ryan] We talked pretty extensively about chess titles last episode, and how important they are for affirmative action to try and give women equal footing. Here's what Fiona had to say when we asked her about her thoughts on separate male and female titles, as well as women events.
[01:00:34.11] [Fiona Steil-Antoni] I actually don't have a strong opinion, which is a weird thing for me to say as a titled-- you know, woman titled player. If tomorrow they took away my Woman International Master title, how would I feel? I'm not sure. Do I feel-- I don't think I feel strongly. I'd be like, oh, my God, I can't believe you're removing women's title.
[01:01:00.39] I think it was Pia Cramling who talked about the importance of having women's-only and girls-only events. And I think for a long time, I didn't understand so much because I was someone who all my life got on better with boys than with girls, in general.
[01:01:17.45] [Playful music plays]
[01:01:17.89] [Jess] Fiona's right. It was Grandmaster Pia Cramling who talked about this. Pia also happens to be the mother of Anna Cramling, who you heard earlier in this episode talking about her experience playing in open tournaments as an underage girl. Here's the clip that Fiona was probably thinking about.
[01:01:36.12] [Pia Cramling] This is very typical in the Nordic countries, that we don't have so many specific women tournaments, in general. We have it, but very few. And it's the same in all Nordic countries. And it's my belief, but it's my personal belief, that the Nordic countries are considered to be more equal between gender. And this is why I believe we have more resistance to organize specific women or girls tournament here, because people think it's not needed. But I believe that to have lots of girls playing, lots of women playing, you need to have tournaments. You need to have trainings where the women or the girls are many. And the easiest way to be many is to have a specific woman or girl tournament.
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[01:02:24.58] [Ryan] There needs to be a bigger attitude adjustment to get more women to play the sport. At this current point in chess history, separate women's titles are needed in order to incentivize women to play chess. In a perfect world, chess has a 50/50 participation rate, and separate titles are no longer needed. But a lot of things need to change in order to get there. Like, for instance, compensating women fairly. Here's Lile's take on women's tournaments and worthy incentives.
[01:02:56.60] [Lile Koridze] If it does not have enough support, it won't change. You know, there are many things which needed-- for example, women prizes in open tournaments. I was playing in one tournament and it was horrible. Like, how it's possible to have, like, in first woman category prize, like, 40. euros. It's like, I don't know, 40 euros would be like $38, $37. Dude! Like, I even need to spend this money in one day to eat. Like, imagine. Even if I would get in first place, I will not go to awarding ceremony because that's shame.
[01:03:29.42] Even in many tournaments, there's so small prizes for women. Like, who you expect them to play? Do you expect them to play? No, it doesn't-- like even $100 does not cover anything, absolutely. Even $200 or $300, it does not cover anything. Like what it should cover-- like, you spend this for food and stuff. So I think it's, in general, a problem that chess has not as much money as it should be, but especially women players. So why they would waste their time if they want to play professional? There isn't enough woman tournaments. Like, the problem is that I want to play in women tournaments, but only I can play in one woman tournament, European Women's Championship. Otherwise, many movement tournaments are closed or they are for, like, certain players, or they are, like, team championships where you should be in some clubs. So what's the point?
[01:04:12.71] Make open tournaments for women, as well, for women to play, and then eventually they will start playing in open tournaments. They have more, like, motivation. So there are many issues that I don't-- I don't know if they're going to fix that, but if it will be fixed, and if it will be more like possible women to play, of course, there will be many players, but if not, there won't be any change. And this would be-- and many women will be just on streaming because streaming is still safer place.
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[01:04:36.97] [Ryan] Women's chess needs a makeover. Chess in general needs a complete overhaul. I'm being a bit facetious here but not really when I say that chess needs a Gordon Ramsay to make it more equitable, accessible, and more enjoyable to watch. But in the meantime, here's JJ and Julia's take on what you can do at an individual level to help make chess more inclusive.
[01:05:02.74] [JJ Lang] I mean, I think that one useful thing that organizers for, like, local chess spaces can do is-- especially if they know anybody who is coming to the clubs, and really just reach out to those people and say, hey, like, what is or isn't working for you, or what could I do better, and take seriously the fact that nobody can answer the specific problems that your community locally is facing than members of that community. Because I've seen people talk online of how it's been difficult as a trans person to play tournaments and not know if there's going to be gender nonspecific restrooms. So that's something that maybe some organizers just don't think about, but you might have somebody who would prefer using a gender nonspecific restroom. They come to your club once or your tournament once, they realize they can't go to the bathroom there, and they don't come back. And they don't personally believe that you did that because you're a bigot. But that just makes it less their space, and that could be a problem. But then also, you could be somewhere where restrooms aren't a problem at all. And that's not the thing. So you really just don't know.
[01:06:03.89] There's been some discussion for tournaments for equal prizes or having specific prizes for top women players. You want to be very careful about language there. Like, are you prepared for a trans woman to win that prize and maybe somebody say some shitty things about that? Or what about somebody who doesn't identify as a woman but might be the kind of person that your inclusion efforts would want to target. So I think that a lot of reflection can be done there, but I think there is something really appealing of, hey, if I'm going to be maybe one of three women playing this 30-player event all weekend, but also I can win my entry fee back and then some if I win a particular prize, that can, I think, serve a function of identifying the barriers and trying to make things a little bit more enticing. Or, also, it serves as a signal that they're thinking about it.
[01:06:55.88] Whatever organizers can do, I think it's really going to be a lot up to community members and people who are at the events themselves. Like, what kind of behaviour are you personally going to let slide before you confront somebody when you see something that's not okay? Like, if you do see somebody make some comments or some glances against, I mean, a woman of any age, but particularly there have been stories of girls in high school, 14, 16, talking about unsolicited advances, and looks, and comments from men. Like, and other people hear that. Other people see that. No one's hiding this. Like, it's really those moments where maybe the organizer didn't hear that, but the person at the table next to you did. So I'm a lot more interested in how the people react in those cases.
[01:07:40.29] I think it's just something that's really worth thinking about. You know, whenever you see these sorts of horror stories online of what happens at these events, I think to really just ask yourself the question, if I were a bystander, what would I feel comfortable doing? Because if you don't think about that question beforehand, and you're like me, your reaction when you see something horrible is, you freeze up. If I haven't thought about how I would react to that, I will be kind of in shock and not react to it. And then, as a result, you have a bunch of people not doing anything. And it would be really cool to see more people just figure out what they can do, even if that means nothing in the moment, but reaching out to someone after and being like, "Hey, are you okay? I saw that. That's not okay. Would you like me to talk to the director for you?" Or being like, "I saw this behaviour, and if this person isn't kicked out of the club, I'm not coming back." There's lots of things you can do, but it's worth thinking about that, I think.
[01:08:29.28] [Julia Rios] I love that point about thinking about those things ahead of time. It can be really, really hard to feel reactive in the way that you want to be, especially when you aren't expecting to see something like this, or it can be really activating. So I think this concept of being proactive, and just thinking about it ahead of time, and thinking about it creatively. There's lots of ways that we can step in. I can think of a lot of scenarios where I might not actually feel comfortable confronting someone, especially when we think about those power dynamics that would still be at play. But other things that I can do, and the ways that I have actually felt really comfortable, reaching out to women when I see things at least in the online space and just being that voice of support, or even confronting it publicly. There's such a range of what we can do. So kind of keeping a lot of options on the table and thinking about it ahead of time is just, like, a really nice way to think about those scenarios.
[01:09:26.42] [Jess] We were not able to get Gordon Ramsay to talk to us about how he would revolutionize the game of chess.
[01:09:32.86] [Gordon Ramsay] It was painful just watching you disintegrate. Get a grip! Oh, dear.
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[01:09:38.72] [Jess] But we did have an amazing conversation with Emilia. She and her team at the Women in Chess Foundation are making great strides in advancing the game of chess and moving towards equality. Significant change can only take place when institutions, like FIDE, the US Chess Federation, the Saint Louis Chess Club, and individuals work-- together and separately-- to make these changes. Anyone interested in the game has a say. Here's Emilia again.
[01:10:06.39] [Emilia Castelao] One thing, too, with the Women in Chess Foundation is showing young women that there are other avenues into the sport besides just playing over-the-board tournaments. There are female chess photographers. There are people who work at chess.com who are software engineers, things like that. There are so many avenues that, if you love the sport but don't play constantly like I do, there's other ways to, like, be supportive and to, like, make a difference.
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[01:10:33.25] [Ryan] The Women in Chess Foundation hasn't been around for very long, but they've already begun proving that change can take place. Here's Fiona.
[01:10:42.24] [Fiona Steil-Antoni] More and more women feel comfortable enough to speak up and to share their stories. I think it's hugely important. So the fact, first, that it's being recognized that there is a problem, and second, for example, the creation of the Women in Chess Foundation recently, I thought, was something that I was so glad to see. I think they are doing great work. They have great projects, and I think it was long overdue. So I'm very happy, and I hope that more and more, you know, safeguarding policies will be put in place.
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[01:11:22.72] [Jess] We've talked a lot about the changes that need to be made and the reasons why we think those changes need to happen. But there's also this interesting question of what made this issue come to light kind of at the same time as the Sinquefield Cup scandal-- this question of, why now?
[01:11:41.69] [Emilia Castelao] I honestly think it's because people are really tired of chess just, like, being this way. I think that there has been a tolerance level for it for a really long time, and now that there are so many avenues to share your story, whether it be online or, like, actually reporting it, people feel comfortable coming forward. And I think, as well, too, just seeing the inaction of the institutions in chess. People want something to change, and something desperately needs to change. And I think they're finally, like, ready to actually do something about it, and to speak up about it.
[01:12:25.65] [Distorted voice,with reverb] I just think it's not just one, okay?
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[01:12:32.10] [Ryan] There's still lots more to be said about this issue, but it's going to have to wait, for now. Maybe we'll be back for a second season of Rooked to do this topic justice. But we still have our first scandal that we need to wrap up. And what better way to get back into the Sinquefield Cup anal beads affair than to tease apart the granular details of the lawsuit that we've gone on and on about with not one, but two law experts.
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[01:13:00.27] [Jess] We're bringing law professor and chess enthusiast David Franklin back into the mix. But we've also secured a second expert guest-- law professor and novice chess player, Nicole O'Byrne. Legal eagles, prepare yourself. It will be the lawsuit episode.
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[01:13:21.72] [Jess] Thanks to our King-tier Patreon subscribers, Umaima Baig, Madelyn, Gord, and Mya Schmidt, Stefan Vezina, Marie Edwards, and Derek Keane.
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[01:13:48.09] [Jess] Rooked: The Cheaters' Gambit is written and produced by me, Jess Schmidt.
[01:13:52.06] [Ryan] And by me, Ryan Webb.
[01:13:53.62] [Jess] Our amazing music is by the ever-talented Lorna Gilfedder.
[01:13:56.92] [Ryan] Our marketing is by media genius Bailey Simone Photography.
[01:14:00.16] [Jess] Our executive producers are Rooney and Indigo.
[01:14:02.66] [both] Speak.
[01:14:03.90] [Rooney and Indigo howling]
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[01:14:08.29] [Jess] This podcast is recorded on the traditional Treaty 7 territory of the Blackfoot Confederacy, the land of the Siksika, the Kainai, the Piikani, as well as the Stoney Nakoda and the Tsuut'ina Nations.
[01:14:19.73] [Ryan] We acknowledge that this territory is home to the Metis Nation of Alberta Region 3 within the historical Northwest Metis homeland. In the spirit of respect, reciprocity, and truth, we honour and acknowledge all nations, Indigenous and non, who live, work, and play on this land, and who honour and celebrate this territory.
[01:14:38.59] [Jess] This gathering place, and therefore this podcast, provides us with an opportunity to engage in and demonstrate reconciliation. The Government of Canada has not followed through on a number of the Calls to Action that have been suggested by the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada.
[01:14:54.40] [Ryan] One of the Calls to Action is for all levels of government in Canada to fully adopt Jordan's Principle. Jordan's Principle was established by First Nations in the early 2000s in response to the death of Jordan River Anderson, who was a young child from Norway House Cree Nation, who suffered from a rare muscular disorder that required years of medical treatment. He spent years in a Winnipeg hospital and was eventually cleared to live in a family home, but he remained in the hospital until his death at five years old. He was never able to live in a family home because the federal and provincial governments fought over who was responsible for covering the cost of the necessary home care.
[01:15:33.59] Though most governments have adopted Jordan's Principle, not all have. It can be argued that no government has fully implemented the principle, and there have been countless cases-- like the 2017 suicide deaths of two girls from Wapekeka First Nation in Ontario-- where governments failed to act in a timely manner. It is frankly disgusting that First Nations children have failed to receive the access to government services that all other Canadians enjoy. Adopting Jordan's Principle in full means valuing First Nations' lives over money at every cost. We need to stop tragedies like unnecessary death from occurring. We must be less reactionary and more preventative when human beings' lives are at stake. Do better, Canada.
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