Episode 3: The Players [PART 2 - Hans]

[00:00:00.41] [Somber electronic music plays]
[00:00:01.22] [Ben Johnson] I don't know if Hans cheated over the board or not, but it just seems like, to me, possibly blacklisting this kid-- you know, I'm an advocate of innocent until proven guilty, Hans is no saint, so that makes me sad, but then also the fact that Hans is now suing makes me sad. I understand feeling aggrieved, but I had some hope that we could move past this, and now I don't think these relationships can ever be mended. I hope I'm wrong, but that's sort of my impression. I don't know if he's a narcissist, but I think his self confidence is genuine. I will say, it's not an act.
[00:00:35.66]
[00:00:39.15] [Rooked theme music plays]
[00:00:39.65] [Ryan] On the last episode of Rooked, we started this special two-part player episode delving into the main characters at the centre of the scandal. So if you don't know who Magnus Carlsen is by now you need to go back and listen to the last episode. Because we, along with our main guest, author and journalist Brin-Jonathan Butler, talked a lot about him. Also, not to brag, but it's a pretty good episode.
[00:01:05.34] [Jess] But this episode isn't about Magnus Carlsen. This is about the other player at the heart of the Sinquefield Cup scandal-- the accused cheater, the established cheater, the heel to the king of chess. Hans Niemann is a decade younger than Carlsen, but we've got just as much to say about him, if not more: where he came from, the unexpected events that brought him to Saint Louis for that fateful game, and how his career has been impacted.
[00:01:39.09] [Ryan] This is a tale of a meteoric rise brought to an almost complete standstill.
[00:01:48.26] [Jess] This is a tale that marked a turning point for not one, but two careers.
[00:01:55.13] [Ryan] This is a tale of cheating, of lies and conspiracies.
[00:02:01.98] [both] This is Rooked: The Cheaters' Gambit.
[00:02:06.99] [Theme music fades]
[00:02:10.91] [Gloomy synth plays]
[00:02:17.78] [Ryan] I'm Jess Schmidt. I podcast and I follow chess, in that order.
[00:02:25.42] [Jess, mockingly] I'm Ryan Webb. I play chess and podcast, in that order. Just kidding. I'm Jess
[00:02:31.45] [Ryan] Yeah, me too.
[00:02:32.08] [Jess] No, you're not!
[00:02:33.13] [Ryan] I'm kidding.
[00:02:33.70] [Jess] You're Ryan!
[00:02:34.37] [Ryan] I'm Ryan. I was kidding.
[00:02:35.68] [Jess laughs]
[00:02:37.00] [Ryan] You know from the last episode of Rooked that there are two big names in this scandal, Hans Niemann and Magnus Carlsen. Just like always, we're going to try and give you the cold, hard facts. But we might also have a few opinions of our own.
[00:02:52.28] [Gloomy synth plays]
[00:03:04.14] [Upbeat music plays]
[00:03:05.13] [Jess] Welcome to Part Two: The Players. We continue with the so-called bad boy of chess, Hans Niemann But before we officially introduce you to our main guess for the episode, let's bring back a familiar voice. You met Brin-Jonathan Butler last episode. He literally wrote a book on Magnus Carlsen. But he has some great opinions on Hans Niemann, too.
[00:03:29.73] [Brin-Jonathan Butler] Hans Niemann looks the part of a Bond villain. Looking at him the first time, I thought he looked like the illegitimate child of Ted Kaczynski and Malcolm Gladwell. And then he has this wonderful transatlantic accent that makes no sense whatsoever. He's a bizarre character. He's very bright. He's. charismatic. He's colourful.
[00:03:48.60] A lot of the world has become not what is like pro wrestling but what is not like pro wrestling, especially in the United States, and he seems sort of like a good heel, using their parlance.
[00:03:59.83] [Ryan] We already talked about this in Part One of Episode Two. But we really do want to have the fullest picture. In order to do that, you need to understand who both players at the heart of this scandal are, and where they're coming from. Also, you should know that both of these men's paths that led them to the Sinquefield Cup couldn't be more different.
[00:04:20.66] It's not really two equals at the chess board. It's the GOAT, Magnus Carlsen, and the scapegoat, Hans Niemann, and you need to keep that at the back of your mind no matter what side you take.
[00:04:33.13] [Jess] Hans, like Magnus, is sort of a tricky person to pin down. He gives a lot of interviews, but he still seems very unapproachable in a lot of ways. Obviously, he didn't want to talk to us, and unlike Magnus, we did not even get a rejection to our request for an interview. He just never responded to any of our attempts to reach him.
[00:04:53.65] [Ryan] However, Hans did give an interview to another podcaster and titled chess player that we both respect a lot, and who did agree to talk to us. You already heard Ben Johnson's voice at the top of the episode.
[00:05:06.70] [Ben Johnson] Hi, my name is Ben Johnson. I am the host of the Perpetual Chess Podcast. I'm also a pretty good amateur chess player, but not a professional player by any means. I interview a lot of top authors, Grandmasters, content creators, and cover crazy chess stories such as the Hans Niemann-Magnus Carlsen saga.
[00:05:28.00] [Jess] Along with the Perpetual Chess Podcast, Ben also has another podcast, called How to Chess. Generally, he's an excellent resource for all things chess related, and he's a super duper podcaster, too. And not only is Ben a more experienced podcaster than us, with over 300 episodes under his belt, he's also a lot better at chess than we are, and most definitely ever will be.
[00:05:54.22] [Ben Johnson] My highest ranking was USCF Master, which, on an international scale, that would be a bit below FIDE master. It puts you in the top, say, at least 5% of tournament players, but means if I played a Grandmaster, I'd be lucky to draw, like, one out of seven games or something. They're way better than me across the board.
[00:06:16.96] [Upbeat music plays]
[00:06:17.27] [Ryan] Which also really puts into perspective just how competitive high-level chess is. But we digress.
[00:06:24.25] Oh, and if you're tired of hearing Jess and I waffle on the whole did-he-or-didn't-he cheat of it all, we're not the only ones who are conflicted. Ben said he's basically on the same page as we are when it comes to Hans in this whole controversy. And again, he had Hans on his show as a guest at one point. And we're going to talk about that more in a bit. But for now I think Ben put the whole problem of the cheating scandal quite eloquently.
[00:06:50.74] [Ben Johnson] I think more likely than not, he did not cheat. But as I've said on Perpetual Chess, like, a lot of the online arguing came from people just being sure, one way or the other, and we weren't there. I definitely don't know for sure. And I've had people who know Hans personally tell me that they think he did it-- maybe not that game, but that he has cheated over the board. There are people who know his personality who say he might have done it. So to me, it's more just that, when I look at the evidence, it's not very convincing to me, even though some people find, like, the quality of his games, a few cherry-picked games out of the 100 that he's played, as, like, smoking guns, to me, that's far from it.
[00:07:33.45] [Sinister synth music plays] So, without further ado, let's talk about Hans. At one point or another, we've both wandered into the territory of defending him. One of the most difficult aspects of this case is that it's severely lacking in hard, conclusive evidence. At most, we get moral greys, half truths, coerced confessions and apologies. But that's not for us to say-- yet.
[00:08:00.58] [Jess] I think we're getting a little ahead of ourselves, as we're wont to do on this podcast, it seems. Let's back it up, all the way back to 20 years ago.
[00:08:10.48] [Tape rewinding]
[00:08:12.99] [Upbeat, playful music plays]
[00:08:13.42] The date is June 2003. A baby by the name of Hans Niemann is born in San Francisco, California, in the good old US of A.
[00:08:25.51] [Ryan] You sound like you're doing a voiceover intro for, like, a Hallmark Christmas movie or something.
[00:08:30.72] [Wistful Christmas music plays]
[00:08:31.30] [Jess] After 20 years away from his hometown, he returns just in time for the holidays. And despite his love of the big city, he finds himself falling for a humble breadstick baker who takes care of his family's decrepit estate, and is also the only vet in town.
[00:08:51.31] [Ryan laughs]
[00:08:51.61] [Ryan] Let's focus on Hans for now, though, Jess.
[00:08:54.41] [Upbeat, playful music plays]
[00:08:54.75] [Jess] He's a cancer.
[00:08:55.95] [Ryan] Actually, he's a Gemini. Get your astrology straight.
[00:08:59.94] [Jess] Okay, sorry.
[00:09:01.56] According to Wikipedia, Hans lived in California until he was seven, then moved to the Netherlands for a couple of years-- that's where he started playing chess-- and then back to California. All of that is pretty normal.
[00:09:13.20] [Ryan] Hans became the youngest ever winner of the Mechanics' Institute Chess Club Tuesday Night Marathon, which is the oldest chess club in the United States, and is where he earned his United States Chess Federation Master title.
[00:09:26.97] [Jess] When he was 11, Hans played in the 2015 National Open of the Las Vegas International Chess Festival. And he was the last person to play a rated game against GM Walter Browne, who died in his sleep shortly after competing in that tournament. Coincidence?
[00:09:44.85] [Dun dun duuuun! sting plays]
[00:09:49.02] Just kidding. It is a coincidence. Hans is on trial for a much pettier crime than murder. It's just a game, after all. No disrespect to Walter Browne.
[00:09:58.80] [Ryan] But you get the picture. From a young age, Hans has been a prominent player in the US chess scene.
[00:10:04.92] [Jess] Also, this is a complete side note, but at one point, Hans was also the number 3 under-12 cyclist in the United States, and he was also, quote, "really into water polo," end quote. Those are Hans' words.
[00:10:18.21] [Ben Johnson] He was obviously a fast-rising star, but he wasn't, like, the fastest rising, so I remember thinking, there's probably some other prominent young players, fast-rising players must be jealous of him.
[00:10:30.24] We talked fairly substantially about, like, the coaching. He wouldn't say which coach he was working with, but he implied that they are helping pay for very high-level coaches, and, you know, opportunities like that can be hard to come by. I assume the relationship-- I don't know if it ended immediately with the accusations, but certainly with the lawsuit. That would end it.
[00:10:50.14] [Jess] The relationship Ben talks about here is the one Hans had with Play Magnus, because-- get this-- Hans was an ambassador for Play Magnus, and that's partially how he got funding for things like coaching. Now, we don't know exactly when that relationship ended, or even what the term ambassador entails besides being a representative of the company. That's what I was asking Ben about. Safe to say, Hans' ambassadorship was no longer being promoted on the Play Magnus website after the events at Sinquefield Cup. But up until that point, it's not like Hans and Magnus had been feuding publicly for ages. They're not the Montagues and the Capulets.
[00:11:31.30] [Harold Perrineau as Mercutio] A plague on both your houses!
[00:11:34.44] [Echoing] Houses, houses, houses...
[00:11:36.31] [Thunder rolls]
[00:11:37.29] [Echoing continues] --your houses, your houses!
[00:11:43.16] [Jess] God I love Claire Danes
[00:11:44.93] [Ryan] Do you want to fuck Claire Danes?
[00:11:46.64] [Jess] Yeah
[00:11:47.28] [Ryan] Okay.
[00:11:47.76] [Jess] Who doesn't?
[00:11:48.29] [Ryan] Well...
[00:11:49.91] [Jess] Do you not?
[00:11:50.63] No, I did.
[00:11:52.68] [Both laugh]
[00:11:53.62] [Jess] That's what Homeland Season 1 is about. Ryan fucks Claire Danes in Homeland Season 1. It's canon.
[00:12:00.32] [Ryan] Check out my IMDB page.
[00:12:01.88] [Both laugh]
[00:12:06.34] [Jess clears her throat]
[00:12:06.73] [Upbeat piano music plays]
[00:12:07.11] [Jess] We'll talk more about the rift between Hans and Magnus later. But, yeah, it's important to note that they were not always on bad terms.
[00:12:13.89] [Ryan] Let's skip forward a bit to 2018 and 2019, when Hans starts to really take his chess career seriously. Prior to this, Hans is a yet-to-be Grandmaster, focusing primarily on his streaming career. Hans starts streaming occasionally in the summer of 2018, but he begins streaming more regularly in the spring of 2019, and after achieving some moderate growth, his viewership skyrockets in early 2020 during the COVID 19 pandemic.
[00:12:42.66] Streaming chess almost daily, Niemann's audience grows more than tenfold, coinciding with an overall boom in the chess category on Twitch during that time.
[00:12:52.38] [Jess] Hans' streaming content is a lot like most of the other chess streamers, but it is very evident that he is a teenager.
[00:13:00.48] [Ryan] Here's a clip of Hans losing his shit after being tricked into a stalemate by Daniel Naroditsky in a chess.com online game. And, warning, it's exactly as loud as a 16-year-old losing his cool usually is, so just prepare your ears.
[00:13:20.21] [Chess.com "piece capture" sound effect plays]
[00:13:20.66] [Chess.com "piece moves" sound effect plays]
[00:13:21.11] [Hans Niemann] Okay.
[00:13:23.85] [Chess.com "game ends" sound effect plays]
[00:13:24.35] [Hans Niemann] What?!
[00:13:24.89] [Pounding on desk]
[00:13:26.27] How?! How is he so smart?!
[00:13:29.15] [Jess] That would be a great bass drop.
[00:13:31.15] [House music plays]
[00:13:32.41] # How, how is he #
[00:13:35.31] # How, how is he #
[00:13:42.45] [Music ends abruptly]
[00:13:42.94] # How? #
[00:13:44.11] # How is he so smart? #
[00:13:45.49] [Bass drops, accentuated with desk pounding]
[00:13:48.46] [Music continues playing]
[00:13:48.96] [Jess] Hans' streaming career is honestly pretty successful, and he plays well, but he also loses a fair number of computer mice. Ryan, would you care to explain, since you've also lost mice in this way?
[00:14:03.60] [Ryan] Well, sometimes you lose a game that you think you're going to win. What's on your desk? I'm not throwing my phone.
[00:14:11.49] [Jess] You're not throwing your phone AGAIN, you mean, because you got in trouble for that last time.
[00:14:16.29] [Ryan] RIP to all the dead mice and one USB mini fan.
[00:14:21.24] [Jess] So, anyways, chess rage is a pretty common thing, and Hans Niemann is no exception. And while we could break down all these clips and give you, you know, proper context, et cetera, like we usually do, I think this will be way funnier-- err, I mean, impactful-- as a supercut of Hans losing it. So here you go.
[00:14:42.66] [Hans Niemann, screaming] am I this fucking good?! Get fucking down and bow down!
[00:14:52.95] [Mouse clicking]
[00:14:53.42] [Hans Niemann] I feel kind of bad that the one thing I'm focused on right now is--
[00:14:56.92] [Screaming] No, no, no! No!
[00:15:01.22] [Breathing heavily] Literally--
[00:15:06.40] [Music plays]
[00:15:07.89] [Screaming] Yeah! Bow friggen down!
[00:15:11.49] [Jess] And here's my favourite clip. You can hear in his voice how excited baby International Master Hans is to play against the rock star of chess himself, Magnus Carlsen.
[00:15:22.47] [Hans Niemann, screaming] Chat, we're playing fucking Magnus! We're playing Magnus Carlsen! Holy shit!
[00:15:30.03] [Sombre music plays]
[00:15:30.27] [Ryan] But it's not all sunshine and roses at this time. Hans doesn't get into his choice university.
[00:15:36.78] [Jess] Where would we be if he did? Would this podcast even exist?
[00:15:43.97] [Hans Niemann] You know, one year ago, I was a Harvard reject with no potential in life. You know, I was 25-maybe-20. I was barely a Grandmaster. I had just, like, you know, got rejected from my dream school, you could say. So one year ago, things were looking pretty bleak. This is definitely, in some cases, a dream come true. The fact that I'm even a professional chess player now is a complete miracle. It would have been so easy for me to be, you know, a professional streamer, or go to college, but the fact that I've been given this opportunity to be a professional chess player I'm very grateful for and will make the most of.
[00:16:23.24] [Upbeat piano music plays]
[00:16:23.48] [Ryan] Interesting that Hans' measure for success is you either go to an Ivy League school, become a world-recognized chess champion, or have no potential in life.
[00:16:33.95] [Jess] We're probably fucking losers in Hans Niemann's eyes. This is what no potential looks like: you podcast exclusively about an anal beads chess cheating scandal.
[00:16:44.61] [Ryan] After undeniable success online and one college rejection, he basically stops streaming altogether.
[00:16:52.41] [Jess] We now know from the events and interviews that took place during the Sinquefield Cup that this was likely due to his chess.com account suspension, because Hans was caught cheating online.
[00:17:04.57] [Hans Niemann] So I cheated in random games on chess.com. Now, I was confronted, I confessed, and this is the single biggest mistake of my life, and I am completely ashamed. And I'm telling the world because I do not want any misrepresentation, and I do not want rumours.
[00:17:20.11] [Jess] Actually, he was streaming at one of the points where he got banned, so, amazingly, we actually have tape of his reaction.
[00:17:29.03] [Hans Niemann] Ha! I got banned. Oh-ho-ha! I got banned!
[00:17:36.50] [Inaudible] She banned me-- chess banned me! He banned me! Oh, my God! I got banned! I can't even-- I can't even joke around! I got banned! Are you kidding me? I'm going to Lichess! I'm going to Lichess! You banned me?!
[00:17:57.46] [Gloomy music plays]
[00:17:57.81] [Ryan] At this point, Hans does a complete 180. He decides that rather than pursue his career online and locally in the US circuit, he'll travel to Europe and start playing in as many OTB tournaments as he can so he can gain his GM title.
[00:18:15.39] [Hans Niemann] I have lived in a suitcase travelling around Europe playing chess nonstop.
[00:18:19.77] [Ryan] Here's another clip from Ben.
[00:18:21.36] [Ben Johnson] With Hans compared to other people, he has put forth a narrative that part of the reason he cheated online when he did, especially when he was 16-- he said 16, it turns out maybe 17, too-- was he was living on his own without financial support in New York City. Obviously, that's expensive, so he was trying to drive up interest in his Twitch viewership. The stronger the players you play, the more people want to tune in. I think he, definitely from what he said in his online cheating, it sounds like he viewed it as a shortcut. Like, "I'm this strong anyway, but let's dispense with the formalities and get my rating up there so that I can reap the rewards." If he were to have cheated over the board, I think it would have been a similar rationale, where he just felt like, "I'm trying to support myself. I'm going to be a world-class player, but I need to get this Grandmaster title as soon as possible so that I can get invites."
[00:19:15.37] I would say there's a 20% chance he cheated over the board and 80% chance he didn't, but it's not hard to come up with a motivation. And as Fabiano Caruana pointed out in the C-Squared Podcast, there are many people where you can judge their character and say they would never cheat, and obviously you can't say that about Hans, being that we know that he did cheat online.
[00:19:37.81] [Upbeat, playful music plays]
[00:19:38.17] [Ryan] This is something we keep coming back to in comparing golden boy Magnus and bad boy Hans. We put them in the same category since they're both Grandmasters at a similar playing level at Sinquefield, and both in the world top 100 players. But that's where a lot of the similarities end.
[00:19:57.96] [Jess] Hans is twelve and a half years younger than Magnus.
[00:20:01.89] [Ryan] Well, 12 years and 163 days.
[00:20:04.89] [Jess] Excuse me for rounding up.
[00:20:06.85] [Ryan] So, anyway, Hans is born in a completely different decade than Magnus was.
[00:20:12.27] [Jess] Magnus grew up on chess books. Kasparov was only defeated by Deep Blue when Magnus was six years old, and Google hadn't even been invented yet.
[00:20:21.60] [Ryan] Hans grew up in the age of the internet, and thanks to people like Magnus developing chess apps and websites, he had access to basically any chess game from his back pocket. Not to say that Magnus didn't as well, but he didn't grow up on it. That wasn't his formative years.
[00:20:39.55] [Jess] We're going to talk more about how the game's changed with the advent and uprising of online chess, but safe to say, like most of the world, chess has been drastically impacted by the dawn of the internet. It's normalized a lot of unsavoury behaviour, up to and including cheating.
[00:20:57.12] [Ryan] Cheating at online chess wasn't really available to Magnus. A-- rounded-up-- 13-year difference isn't that significant in the grand scheme of things, but in the chess world, especially in the last 30 years, it's incredibly significant. Magnus saw the birth of online chess and knew what came before it. Hans has only known chess as the twofold creature that it has become. He has never not known the tension and struggle between these two different worlds of online and OTB chess.
[00:21:33.49] [Jess] Also, I'm not trying to apologize for Hans, but I just made so many mistakes when I was a teenager.
[00:21:39.37] [Ryan] Oh, me too.
[00:21:41.85] [Crickets chirping]
[00:21:44.67] [Jess] Okay, I guess neither of us is as brave as Hans and is just unwilling to revisit our teenaged mistakes. We can just save that for our therapists, I guess. You guys don't need to know.
[00:21:53.25] [Upbeat piano music plays]
[00:21:54.88] Suffice to say, what Hans did was wrong, but he's arguably been paying a way bigger price than a lot of us have for youthful mistakes.
[00:22:04.51] [Ryan] And if you think Hans needed something more severe than gallivanting across Europe as his punishment, does it make you feel better that when Hans wasn't actively playing in tournaments, he just stayed in his room and studied chess the whole time? We have the receipts, or at least secondhand receipts of the receipts.
[00:22:25.56] [Ben Johnson] It happens in a lot of my interviews. I ask them about their study routines, and it seems like days often add up to more than 24 hours. Laurent Fressinet on the Chicken Chess Club Podcast described Hans visiting some chess players when he was passing through Paris, and they're like, "Aren't you going to go see the sights?" And he's like, "No." You know, 19-year-old kid in Paris for the first time and all he wanted to do was chess stuff. So I do think he works extremely, extremely hard on his chess, probably to a fault.
[00:22:54.64] [Generic Parisian music plays]
[00:22:54.91] [Jess] Can you imagine going to Paris and sitting in your room and playing chess?
[00:22:59.29] [Ryan] Yeah, like, just, like, not going to the Louvre?
[00:23:01.99] [Jess] Actually, I could imagine you going to Paris and just sitting in your room and playing chess. I take it back.
[00:23:06.62] [Ryan] I need to see the Mona Lisa, at least.
[00:23:08.41] [Jess] Yeah, you would probably sit on a bench near the Mona Lisa in the Louvre and play chess.
[00:23:12.82] [Ryan laughs]
[00:23:13.69] [Ryan] And, like, you're going to the Eiffel Tower.
[00:23:16.72] [both] To play chess.
[00:23:17.86] [Both laugh]
[00:23:20.09] [Upbeat piano music plays]
[00:23:20.53] [Jess] And if you don't believe Ben-- I don't know why you wouldn't, Ben really knows his shit, and, again, he literally did a direct interview with Hans-- David Franklin, our resident law expert, said basically the same thing.
[00:23:32.89] [David Franklin] Yeah, you know, he reminds me a little bit, personality wise, of Bobby Fischer. Fischer had this one-person-against-the-world mentality, where he just was very brash, and he would say incredibly arrogant things. Now, Fischer could back them up because he was the strongest player in the world. Hans isn't there, and probably never will be, but he has a sort of similar monastic, kind of monomaniacal streak. You know, he says he studies chess 10, 12, 15 hours a day, you know, living out of a suitcase in hotel rooms. He was in Paris and didn't even see the sights of Paris because he was in his hotel room, studying chess all day. That's very Fischer-like, as well.
[00:24:16.31] [Generic Parisian music plays]
[00:24:16.64] [Ryan] I'm going to fuck around with a baguette, at least. A baguette and chess. That's like the French version of Netflix and chill.
[00:24:22.81] [Ryan] Baguette and chess?
[00:24:23.68] [Jess] Baguette and bed bugs and chess.
[00:24:25.18] [Ryan] Wow.
[00:24:25.57] [Ryan laughs] Okay.
[00:24:29.83] [Gloomy music plays]
[00:24:30.29] Why are we telling you this? Well, first of all, it's weird, and we love how weird it is. But this is also evidence that you need to file away in your little podcast mind palace. Because there's still more to come on just how weird Hans is, and it's also important to note that while in Europe, Hans did obtain the GM title that he was fighting for, and he had a meteoric rise in Elo. So, all the locking himself in his room clearly did work.
[00:25:02.84] [Jess] And when we say meteoric rise, the exact numbers are that he had an Elo of 2313 in July 2018, and two years later, in March 2022, he had a rating of 2642. Now, the difference of 329 points might not seem very significant, but remember what we talked about last episode?
[00:25:25.79] In Magnus' pursuit of 2900, we explained that at a high level, Elo increases not linearly but by order of magnitude. This is called the K value, and it goes up significantly when you cross the threshold of 2400. That's essentially the barrier between titled players and non-titled players, except for GMs, which require a rating of over 2500.
[00:25:48.27] [Jess] While Hans is not exactly close to Magnus' Elo rating, his highest rating of 2708 is nothing to sneeze at. Hans has been a top 100 player in the world since 2020, and even peaked at number 31 in May of 2023.
[00:26:03.84] [Ryan] But a year before that, and six months before the scandal at the Sinquefield Cup would take place, Ben published his interview with Hans on March 22nd, 2022.
[00:26:14.64] [Upbeat music plays]
[00:26:15.06] If you're really interested, you should just listen to the whole episode, and listen to the Perpetual Chess Podcast in general, because Ben is as good an interviewer as he is interviewee. We've linked the Perpetual Chess Podcast in the show notes, so listen and subscribe, as the kids say.
[00:26:33.69] [Ryan, synthesized voice with reverb] Smash that like button!
[00:26:37.30] [Jess] That being said, here's our favourite highlights from Ben's interview with Hans that he has graciously let us repurpose for this podcast. And trust us when we say, it was hard to narrow this down, as Hans was his strange self basically the entire interview.
[00:26:53.98] [Ben Johnson] You made an absolutely insane jump from 2021 to 2022. Your rating was about 2480 FIDE at the beginning of last calendar year, and you're over 2640 now. I mean, that's just an extremely rare feat when you're already at such a high level. So how do you reflect on this year and a half, Hans? I mean, I know you've got tournaments fresh in your mind, but when you step back, how do you reflect on it?
[00:27:22.02] [Hans Niemann] Well, I guess you could say it was a successful year. I don't know. It was-- when I look back on it, I definitely am happy, but I'm also thinking, you know, it could have happened faster. But maybe that's the greedy side of me, right? But from a mental level, I think it was one of the most challenging-- like, the mental strength that I had to have, the travelling so long alone with COVID and all of that that entailed, I think was such a an experience, that I think it really just helped me grow as a chess player, but also gave me just immense mental strength and fortitude that would really help my chess game, as well. So I think you could definitely say it was life changing, in many respects.
[00:28:10.72] [Ryan] So modest, Hans. Very good non-answer.
[00:28:14.52] [Ben Johnson] What would have to happen for you to feel like you didn't achieve your goal? Like, what goal would not be reached? I think if I don't reach the top 10, then I think I will assess my chess career as a failure.
[00:28:25.30] [Ben Johnson] Wow, that's heady stuff, man.
[00:28:27.28] [Ben laughs]
[00:28:28.30] [Hans Niemann] I think my life as a failure, as well, if you want to get deep.
[00:28:31.21] [Jess] Nuff said.
[00:28:32.40] [Upbeat, playful music plays]
[00:28:32.68] [Ryan] We're obviously now privy to the information that Hans was guilty of cheating online and has since confessed. But at the time when Ben was speaking to him, he still had a clean slate, or at least his transgressions online were not yet public.
[00:28:48.67] [Jess] So we wanted to hear from Ben whether or not he was surprised by the allegations in the wake of the Sinquefield Cup scandal, and if there was anything in the nearly 90 minute interview that he had with Hans that gave him some kind of insight into this aspect of Hans' character.
[00:29:07.23] [Music fades]
[00:29:08.14] [Ben Johnson] Yeah, I did not have any sense. I had not heard the rumours about online cheating. Hans is not lacking for self-confidence. He comes across as sort of brash bad boy, and I think he kind of revels in that a little bit. So it didn't surprise me that it turns out he's disliked, but that was sort of the extent of my impression of him. If you had asked me, like, is there anything that you would suggest that he's so unscrupulous, that he's a cheater, I would have said no. If you had asked me, like, among my guests, who do you think might have an extensive cheating history online, I might have guessed him, only because he's so young. I just feel like anyone that age is more prone to-- to making mistakes. I certainly made some mistakes as a teenager. So in that respect, it didn't shock me, but I didn't see-- I hadn't heard anything, and there was nothing in our conversation that made me think that he would cheat whether online or OTB.
[00:30:09.46] [Ryan] Again, go listen to Perpetual Chess, and thank you to Ben for being our direct contact with Hans and being such a generous resource to us and the rest of the chess world.
[00:30:20.72] [Upbeat piano music plays]
[00:30:21.07] [Jess] Okay, next thing after Hans' interview with Ben in March 2022, the FTX Crypto Cup. You might remember this event from Episode One. This is where Hans drops the whole...
[00:30:32.74] [Hans Niemann, with reverb] Chess speaks for itself.
[00:30:35.11] [Ryan] But he only wins the one game against Magnus in the best-of-four set. Afterwards, in another interview, Hans changes his tune a bit.
[00:30:44.22] [reporter] Hans, to start out there, playing in a blazing speed.
[00:30:48.15] [Hans Niemann] A what? Sorry. What was the--
[00:30:49.05] [reporter] Your speed. It was going so fast there for a while.
[00:30:52.29] [Hans Niemann] Well, yeah, I'm just absolutely miserable. Like, I just would really like to just-- the fact that I have not already gone to the minibar and pulled a Magnus is like-- or the fact that I haven't, like, just jumped in the pool or... Like, the fact that I'm alive at this moment is-- is a miracle, because after I lost this first game, I think I was really just ready to just go into the ocean and never-- never come back.
[00:31:27.30] [reporter] But do you think that speed that you put up, the intuitiveness of your chess is a way of resetting and getting back to the real Hans Niemann?
[00:31:33.62] [Hans Niemann] No, no, no. I wanted to lose as quickly as possible so I could go back to my hotel room and turn all the lights off, order some-- some delivery, and watch Netflix and numb the pain until the next game.
[00:31:48.14] [reporter] I'm hoping that it's not the same mind frame you had before the game before.
[00:31:51.38] [Hans Niemann] No, no. It's the exact same. And it's going to be. And I've already-- I think my Uber Eats in this event has already-- it's I think maybe $1,000 on Uber Eats. So I have been indulging and numbing the pain with $1,000 of Uber Eats.
[00:32:07.46] [Jess] Is Hans sponsored by Uber Eats? Is that the image that Uber Eats wants?
[00:32:12.08] [Upbeat music plays]
[00:32:12.44] Uber Eats: Don't walk into the ocean. Order $1,000 worth of food from us instead.
[00:32:18.41] [Ryan] Uber Eats.
[00:32:19.12] [Voice lowered, synthesized, with reverb] Food speaks for itself.
[00:32:23.90] [Cheerful music plays]
[00:32:24.38] [Jess] Another amazing thing to come out of the FTX Crypto Cup is a picture of Hans and Magnus playing chess on the beach together. This is obviously a marketing ploy. I really cannot imagine a worse place to play chess. Very different than the standard suit-and-tie fare you get at most tournaments.
[00:32:44.93] [Ryan] But this gives us a crucial insight into what we were talking about at the start of the episode-- the state of Hans and Magnus' relationship before the whole cheating scandal. Not great for podcasting, but we'll include a link of the photo of them in the show notes.
[00:33:00.95] [Jess] If I had to describe the image-- which we have to, because this is a podcast-- they just look so uncomfortable. Hans is wearing Converse sneakers, for God's sake. I can practically feel the sand in his shoes. Terrible sensory experience. But even though they both look very posed, they seem amicable?
[00:33:26.97] [Ryan] But if I had to pick a point of where the Hans v Magnus rivalry began, it would be this.
[00:33:33.18] [Jess] But why though?
[00:33:37.64] [Sombre electronic music plays]
[00:33:38.10] [Ryan] Because Hans' cockiness and attitude was sort of first on display here to a large audience, and on the opposite side of the board is Magnus. It's just disrespectful to say, "Chess speaks for itself," and walk out of an interview when you're asked about playing the number one chess player of all time. Magnus probably didn't care about Hans' response here, but I think it's sort of a cumulative thing. This is the precipitating event that got the ball rolling in the Hans v Magnus rivalry. The stuff at Sinquefield is the result of this snowball.
[00:34:17.13] [Jess] Here's Emilia Castelao. She's a chess player and academic who works for FIDE. She's coming back in a later episode to school us on the history of FIDE and chess, but for now, here's some of the insights she gave us when we asked her why she thought Magnus levied the cheating allegations through the methods that he did.
[00:34:36.75] [Emilia Castelao] I don't know. I guess putting myself in Magnus' shoes, I think the reason he went about it the way he did is because Hans has a history of being very eccentric online, especially in the FTX Crypto Cup in Miami, kind of, the clips that went viral from that. And so, I don't know if long term, things were really thought about that far in advance.
[00:35:04.30] [Comical slide whistle plays]
[00:35:07.08] [Cheerful music plays]
[00:35:07.55] [Ryan] Did you know that Rooked: The Cheaters' Gambit is an indie podcast?
[00:35:11.63] [Jess] Indie as in independent. We don't receive any sponsorship support. Ryan and I make Rooked in our spare time for free.
[00:35:19.14] [Ryan] And don't get us wrong. We love getting to make this podcast exactly the way we want to. But we've been thinking that maybe with some support, we could make this show even better.
[00:35:29.09] [Tim Robinson] I got to figure out how to make money on this thing. It's simply too good.
[00:35:32.93] [Jess] So, like many creators, we've joined Patreon.
[00:35:36.32] [Ryan] Can I just ask, what is Patreon?
[00:35:39.02] [Jess] Great question, Ryan. Patreon is a way for fans to join and engage with their favourite creators' community. Basically, it's a platform that allows you to support creators financially. Currently, we have two tiers open: the Pawn level, if you want to support us for 5 Canadian dollars a month-- cheaper than mailing us an envelope of loonies and toonies-- and the King level, for $20 per month. If you choose to support us at the King tier, we'll also mention you by name in the episode credits. And if you support us at any level on Patreon, you'll also be able to access bonus content.
[00:36:12.62] This month, Ryan has put together an extra episode, called Dlugy Drama, which you might remember we teed up in Episode One. Content like this is exclusive for our Patreon members.
[00:36:25.10] [Ryan] Plus, we'll send you nudes.
[00:36:26.84] [Jess] I will not be sending nudes, but whatever you work out between you and the Patrons is your own business, Ryan.
[00:36:32.90] [Ryan] Are you sure we should be doing this? Patreon looks like they stole their logo directly from Target.
[00:36:38.33] [Jess] You are the only person I've ever had to describe Patreon to, so I don't really trust your judgement here, honestly.
[00:36:45.48] But that's a good point. If you want to support us but monthly donations don't fit your budget, you can also buy us a coffee instead, at buymeacoffee.com/rooked. Or we also really appreciate ratings, reviews, and shares, too, and those are free.
[00:37:00.33] [Ryan] We love making this podcast, and our motivation is listeners like you. So we really appreciate your support at any level.
[00:37:08.31] [Jess] Go to patreon.com/rooked to support the podcast. That's patreon.com/rooked. Thanks for listening.
[00:37:18.37] [Comical slide whistle plays]
[00:37:21.34] [Gloomy m usic plays]
[00:37:22.82] [Ryan] Obviously, we're stringing all of these events together to find a pattern, tell a story, get to some kind of an answer. But this is all retrospective. You have to keep in mind that when the FTX "Chess speaks for itself" thing happened, it was weird but not that big of a deal. Things got placed in a completely new light once the Sinquefield cheating allegations were made.
[00:37:48.41] [Jess] So let's fast forward through those couple of weeks to the date in question.
[00:37:53.51] [Tape rewinds]
[00:37:55.97] It's the Sinquefield Cup, but Hans actually wasn't supposed to be there.
[00:38:00.57] [Ryan] That's right. Richard Rapport was originally set to play the event, but he couldn't get there due to COVID travel restrictions. So his invitation was extended to none other than Hans Niemann.
[00:38:14.60] [Jess] This doesn't really matter, but it does help to contextualize some of Magnus' comments in his withdrawal statement. Quote, "When Niemann was invited last minute to the 2022 Sinquefield Cup, I strongly considered withdrawing prior to the event," end quote.
[00:38:31.41] [Ryan] Part of the problem in this hindsight about the events leading up to the Sinquefield Cup is that, even with our best detective skills, we just aren't privy to what happens behind closed doors in elite chess. Here's a clip from the C-Squared Podcast hosted by world number two Fabiano Caruana and GM Cristian Chirila.
[00:38:52.23] [C-Squared theme music plays]
[00:38:56.76] [Cristian Chirila] Fabi, the Sinquefield Cup is over. This is recorded after the last game. How do you feel about the tournament?
[00:39:05.28] [Fabiano Caruana] The tournament was defined by Magnus' dropping out and everything that came with that, which kind of became a scandal, because it's unprecedented that the World Champion, or, in fact, anyone from a top level withdraws mid-tournament and doesn't give a clear reason, especially. We do have some theories about this that have gone around.
[00:39:28.77] [Cristian Chirila] What is your take on that, overall?
[00:39:30.96] [Fabiano Caruana] Well, I mean, obviously, the biggest theory is that he left because he was worried that-- that Hans has cheated in this event or in the past. Like, there's two sides of this. I think one is that cheating is such a huge problem in chess, and we have to recognize that. The other thing is that, you know, accusations, whether they're true or not, carry a huge amount of weight, and especially when it comes from someone who has a lot of influence in the chess world.
[00:39:58.32] [Cristian Chirila] The fact that Hans cheated on chess.com was not public. But do you think Magnus knew about his cheating accusations?
[00:40:05.38] [Fabiano Caruana] I know he knew.
[00:40:06.37] [Cristian Chirila] He knew. Yeah.
[00:40:07.27] [Fabiano Caruana] Yeah, it's-- you hear things and it is a small world, and things do get said and passed around.
[00:40:15.28] [Gloomy music plays]
[00:40:17.31] [Jess] So, something happened between the FTX Crypto Cup and his loss to Hans at Sinquefield Cup-- again, just a matter of weeks-- that made Magnus change his mind about being willing to play Hans. We're probably never going to know for sure what combination of things went down behind the scenes, but we can analyze what happened publicly until the cows come home. And, baby, that ain't any time soon.
[00:40:45.80] [Cow mooing]
[00:40:48.21] Oh, man, that was dumb.
[00:40:49.38] [Jess laughs]
[00:40:49.75] That's not even a funny joke.
[00:40:50.93] [Upbeat piano music plays]
[00:40:52.02] I guess I just mean that it might just be an endless conversation? Like, why did Magnus handle this the way he did, whether or not Hans cheated at Sinquefield, what aroused magnus' suspicions about Hans cheating? None of these questions are answerable. But I think the reason all of this is compelling despite that is Sinquefield ended up being a lightning rod for all these separate pieces.
[00:41:15.95] [Loud thunder cracking]
[00:41:19.06] For whatever reason, it transmuted into a cohesive scandal story. All of the weirdnesses just got amplified and blown up, and now it's hard to pick out what's true and what really happened. But I think one of the ways of doing that is to pay attention to all the little weirdnesses.
[00:41:39.75] [Upbeat, playful music plays]
[00:41:41.01] [Ryan] Okay, weirdness number one: Hans' post-match analysis. We already talked about this a bit in Episode One, but honestly for us to replay that clip and analyze why it was so weird is just boring and super dense.
[00:41:54.99] [Jess] Frankly, I've watched this clip a number of times, and it is practically gibberish for a non-chess person. But here's part of it anyways.
[00:42:03.79] [Hans Niemann] But, yea, a3 is just-- with takes and c5 it's very concrete. And then I think I vaguely remember, after h6, I think even-- even a queen h4 might be a move here. What does the engine say? Okay, it's not-- not here. Not here. Not here.
[00:42:18.81] [Alejandro Ramirez chuckles]
[00:42:19.18] Okay, maybe-- I remember some queen h4, but, yeah, okay. After Bishop e6, it's just quite difficult. So I think I played really well. I was very happy, you know? I had some great-- okay, let's go there. I want to enjoy it, you know? It's really nuanced, you know?
[00:42:31.09] [Piano music plays]
[00:42:31.57] [Ryan] But even if you have chess knowledge, here's what comes out of his post-game interview. Number one, he references games that just don't exist. Number two, he played such an odd sideline so perfectly, he practically seemed to know what Magnus was going to play. But then when he was asked to analyze the position and make a move, he suggested a line where he was down 6 points of material and in a completely losing position.
[00:43:00.34] [Jess] Essentially, Hans played well, but then in the analysis afterwards, seemed to struggle to keep everything strength, to find the moves in the post-interview that had actually won him the real game.
[00:43:12.74] [Ryan] But just to play devil's advocate, Hans does know how to analyze a game. He's done dozens of post-game interviews where his analysis is very clear and coherent. That's part of what makes this analysis so weird. Here's what FIDE Master James Canty III had to say when we asked him about Hans' analysis.
[00:43:33.59] [James Canty III] I really didn't even care. I was like, bro, that's just stupid. For me, like, bro, he's like 2700, and still to this day there's no evidence. So for people to say, you know, oh, the analysis was this. Like, he could have just did that on purpose. You don't even know that. Like, you have no idea. Oh, that doesn't sound like a 2600 analysis. Bro, he could have been trolling you the whole time. And guess what? It worked, right? You know, that's what I thought. That's my thing about it.
[00:43:57.32] Like, "Did you hear the analysis?" I'm like, "Yo, but did you find any evidence, though?" And like, you know, "Well, no, but his analysis." So you're banking it off of his analysis, is what you're saying. What if he was messing with you? Oh, you don't have an answer. Like, what is that? You know what I mean. So I really was like I don't I don't believe it you know I don't believe that he's cheating, and still to this day, there is no evidence that he was cheating.
[00:44:18.68] [Upbeat, playful music plays]
[00:44:19.83] [Jess] All right, so that's the weird analysis that Hans gave at Sinquefield. On to weirdness number two, which is a much more prolifically weird thing that you might have already picked up on in the clips that we've played of Hans. But if you didn't pick it up, that's okay, too. He's been called out and even made fun of a bunch of different times by all sorts of different sources for his, shall we say, unusual accent-- one that he has not always had.
[00:44:49.05] [Ryan] Here's what Hans says in an interview when asked directly about his accent.
[00:44:53.46] [Hans Niemann] This is just the most funny thing, because if you want me to speak like an American right now, I can't even tell. I spend so much time working on chess that I simply don't go outside and socialize with people who speak fluent English.
[00:45:04.46] [Alejandro laughs]
[00:45:05.88] This is just one thing I want to talk about. I'm just-- before I say anything. Like, I have spent the last two years not spending any time in America, and even when I'm in America, I don't go outside other than when I pick up my food. I'm just too busy with chess. So all these things saying that, like, I'm faking an accent and that, like, I'm putting on some facade, that is, like, the most ridiculous thing I've ever said, and if anyone is using my -newfound accent to make any conclusions about anything chess related, is, like, absolutely insane.
[00:45:41.19] [Upbeat piano music plays]
[00:45:41.68] [Ryan] Let's turn to the good folks at Reddit for this one. The archived discussion thread titled Where is Hans Niemann's Accent From? is very helpful and quite hilarious, and it also gave us a lot of amazing resources, so we'll link it in the show notes.
[00:45:58.52] [Jess] Here's an example of what Hans sounded like early in his streaming career, 2018, 2019. For context, Hans thinks he's playing a cheater here because their accuracy is surprisingly high.
[00:46:11.53] [Hans Niemann, sans accent] Wow, he just played-- I don't know what the heck even happened there. It's like everything was together and then it just collapsed. 99.4? Okay. That makes sense. I guess he just played a good game. 99.4 is a little bit high, but I don't like accusing people.
[00:46:27.49] [Jess] And here's another one where you can really hear the California in his accent from this same time period.
[00:46:34.76] [Hans Niemann, with California accent] Yeah, so Nick will get you a Diamond membership. And then you can, like, do a bunch of puzzles and stuff. You can watch the videos.
[00:46:44.67] [Ryan] Compare that with his weird Euro-hybrid accent a few years later. This clip is actually from his interview that he gave after beating Magnus at Sinquefield.
[00:46:54.09] [Hans Niemann, with Euro hybrid accent] And already he's demoralized, right? So, you know, when I played him, I noticed sometimes when he wants to assert dominance, he cracks a little smile. He wasn't cracking many smiles, maybe one or two, and that made me feel very good. Because I just-- again, of course, I grew up watching him. I grew up-- I've watched all of his interviews, and, you know, and he said once in an interview that he spent more than 10 minutes on a move, that's a very bad sign. And he did that a lot this game. Reddit user FinGoth Official says, "He's not doing an accent; he's doing Bobby Fischer," and then linked to this clip that I've condensed for brevity of Bobby Fischer on the Johnny Carson Show.
[00:47:31.26] [Johnny Carson] Now, look, you've defeated Boris Spassky now, and you're the champion chess player of the entire world. Now, what is there beyond that?
[00:47:40.09] [Bobby Fischer] Yeah, this is the big problem, what to-- how do I top it? But I figure, if I can keep the title for another 30 years, something like that, it's...
[00:47:48.13] [Johnny Carson] Just 30 years or so, huh?
[00:47:49.78] [Laughter]
[00:47:49.93] [Bobby Fischer] I woke up the day after the thing was over, and I just felt different, like something had been taken out of me.
[00:47:58.15] [Jess] Honestly, I kind of hear it.
[00:48:00.22] [Piano music plays]
[00:48:00.55] [Ryan] Reddit user TheChessLobster says, "I call it 'chess speak.' I live in Wisconsin, and I have multiple 1800 plus Elo friends who start doing a Slavic-Russian mish-mosh accent once they start analyzing games. It's honestly hilarious."
[00:48:19.69] [Jess] So, maybe this is just Hans' youth and lack of socialization showing? Some have suggested he puts it on. Either way, kind of weird.
[00:48:30.19] [Ryan] But it's not completely out of the realm of possibilities that he did develop this accent while in Europe like he says.
[00:48:36.85] [Jess] Sure.
[00:48:39.07] [Upbeat, playful music plays]
[00:48:39.95] The last weird thing I guess we should point out isn't necessarily a Hans weird thing but more just how polarizing the post-Sinquefield interview Hans gave has been. Some people were totally convinced of his innocence based on that interview, while others were even more convinced that he cheated.
[00:48:59.21] [Ryan] Yeah, even between the two of us we experienced this. I felt like he was being really genuine.
[00:49:04.95] [Jess] But I felt like he was putting on a show. So we decided to ask some other people's opinions. And since the chessfeels podcast's whole thing is the psychology of chess, we thought Julia and JJ would have interesting opinions.
[00:49:18.95] [Whispers] And we were right.
[00:49:21.20] [Normal voice] Julia and JJ, the co-hosts of the chessfeels podcast, had a similar reaction that I did.
[00:49:27.71] [JJ Lang] In that game, do I think Hans cheated? No. I think it would be very difficult to cheat. I think that it's also very difficult to cheat without getting caught, not, like, from a physical sense of, like, someone figuring out what you're doing, but to be able to play well enough to beat the best player in the world without it being so obviously played by a computer. So I'm very doubtful that he was cheating in that game. Everything that's happened after then has been just really funny, and just delightful, and just showing how much of a mess this entire world is, and I'm here for it.
[00:50:02.17] [Julia Rios] The one thing that occurred that I think actually really helped convince a lot of people that Hans was innocent was the video, the interview that he put out after everything, where he essentially said, you know, "I didn't do this. I feel so strongly." When I read the transcript of that interview, I actually found it, like, very moving and very convincing. And then when I actually watched the interview, where he delivered that same information, but you could see his body language and the way he was talking, I had a very different experience, and it actually made me feel-- like, as a psychologist-- like what he was saying wasn't actually entirely truthful. So it was an interesting experience. This video that convinced a lot of people actually made me feel more suspicious of Hans, although that's not evidence in the slightest, but it just made me feel like the whole thing, like JJ said, is a total mess. And I didn't feel convinced or convicted that Hans has been just acting, like, totally ethically throughout his chess career.
[00:51:06.15] [Jess] Did I pick these clips because JJ and Julia agreed with me that Hans seemed sus? Maybe. But here's some other opinions about Hans that we also gathered to try and balance things out. First up, Ben again.
[00:51:19.05] [Ben Johnson] Especially because of the lawsuit, I feel like it sets the bar even higher for what he would need to do over the board in order to just silence doubters and create more opportunities, whereas before, I feel like if he had performed at a, say, you know, top 20 in the world level, maybe doors would open up with people sort of holding their noses, even if they had a negative opinion. Now I feel like he might need to be top five or something. Like, he might just need to perform astronomically to have doors open for invitational tournaments, obviously, especially, if Magnus is playing in them.
[00:51:54.55] So if you add that on top of the anecdotal evidence of people like IM Greg Shahade, and the International Master David Vigorito told me a story of, like, how impressed he was by Hans' calculation, I definitely believe what people have said about he had a natural talent for chess and, you know, finally started to apply himself. Now, doesn't make it impossible that he cheated over the board here or there, but I think even if he did, it would have been not that many games, you know?
[00:52:28.98] [Ryan] We'll hear more from Mike Boyd next episode when we go in on the cheating itself, but here's what he thought about Hans.
[00:52:35.97] [Mike Boyd] When I first heard about it my knee-jerk reaction was, he's got to have cheated, because I, along with many other people, regard Magnus as this superhuman God that never makes a mistake, and everything he says has got to be right. And then after I finished making the device, I was like, nah, there's... By the time I finished making it, he had played other tournaments and continued to dominate with the spotlight on him-- not just the spotlight of people checking him for cheating things, and it would be so audacious to cheat after that-- but he continued winning and had the pressure of the media on him, and he continued to crush everyone. So I don't think he-- I don't think he cheated in the Sinquefield Cup.
[00:53:18.57] [Jess] Whether or not you think Hans cheated at Sinquefield, we'll leave you on the whole scandal with this last clip from Ben.
[00:53:25.11] [Ben Johnson] I do feel like Hans got unfairly singled out, out of all the online cheaters. I mean, it does seem like Magnus legitimately, for whatever reason that he has or has not revealed, thought that Hans cheated in that game. But I just think wait the tournament's, over, share as much information as you can, and go from there. But there certainly-- there was no perfect solution. Like, if you're going to single someone out and you're not 100% sure, it's going to be messy.
[00:53:54.04] [Gloomy music plays]
[00:53:56.86] [Jess] And that kind of brings us up to date in terms of Hans at the Sinquefield Cup. But that was already over a year ago. And one thing you can bank on in chess is that the drama never stops.
[00:54:10.69] Hans kept his head down and has still been playing chess OTB. His career definitely slowed down, especially when the lawsuit was happening, because he wasn't invited to any tournaments and was only able to play in open tournaments.
[00:54:24.70] [Hans Niemann] But the tournaments that I've played have all been open tournaments, where I have been the top or second seed. So playing in these tournaments, like, is like suicide for your rating. Like, it's really, really difficult to gain rating. No players of my rating play in these tournaments. And if you look at, let's say, last year, last year I played invitationals in Saint Louis. I have not been invited to a single tournament in Saint Louis. Like, literally, Saint Louis doesn't even respond to my emails. They don't invite me to any tournaments. And that's, like, in America. But if you're talking about, like, outside of the US, all the invitational tournaments that I played before, I got no invitations.
[00:55:07.51] [Jess] In fact, from February to April of this year, 2023, Hans didn't play in any tournaments at all.
[00:55:14.41] [Ryan] But since the lawsuit has been resolved, it seems like Hans is being invited to tournaments again. Thanks to Magnus' forgiveness, Hans' shadow banning from chess events has now been lifted. Does this mean that the pettiness between Hans and Magnus has been resolved? Absolutely not. Here's another great tidbit from Emilia about this.
[00:55:38.39] [Emilia Castelao] The meme culture around it all is what gave it its virality, you know? It's what made people outside the chess world so interested in what was going on inside. We had the chess boom after The Queen's Gambit. Since then has been kind of the biggest chess boom again after. And so, I don't know, it's a very strange dynamic to look at.
[00:56:04.91] [Upbeat, playful music plays]
[00:56:05.81] [Jess] Which brings us to the juiciest, most recent offering in this scandal.
[00:56:11.42] [Ryan] On September 25th, 2023, Hans and his lawyer, Terrence A Oved, are interviewed by Piers Morgan in a tell-all regarding the recent cheating scandal with Magnus Carlsen. This interview is completely absurd, and we're going to break down the highlights for you in this episode and others. But if you have 20 minutes to spare, you should just watch the whole thing.
[00:56:35.57] [Jess] Make some popcorn. Popcorn's good.
[00:56:39.15] [Jess laughs]
[00:56:40.06] I don't know-- I don't know if you know, but popcorn is, like, delicious.
[00:56:44.41] [Ryan] Are you-- are you selling popcorn on the side?
[00:56:47.25] [Jess] Today's episode is sponsored by Big Popcorn. That's Jiffy. That's for sure just Jiffy.
[00:56:51.09] [Jess] Fuck you, Orville. Give us money.
[00:56:54.86] [Melodic saxophone music plays]
[00:56:56.22] [Ryan] First off, Pervy Piers just seems to be way too infatuated with the whole anal beads thing. Just listen to this.
[00:57:04.26] [Piers Morgan] You're accused of cheating in a particularly fascinating manner, which is the allegation was that your coach had basically instructed you to insert anal beads inside yourself, which he would then send remote signals to.
[00:57:19.59] [Ryan] I mean, this isn't really what the original accusation was. Also why did Piers describe it this way?
[00:57:27.00] [Jess] Even after Hans' response, Piers doubles back to the device. I love how Hans responds, just completely writing off the ridiculous prodding.
[00:57:39.09] [Piers Morgan] But again, to be clear on the specific allegation, have you ever used anal beads while playing chess? Not a question I ever thought I'd ask a guest, to be honest, but...
[00:57:52.09] [Hans Niemann] Well, you know, your curiosity is a bit concerning, you know? Maybe you're personally interested, but I can tell you no.
[00:57:58.09] [Ryan] Anyway, here's what Hans has to say about chess.com's Hans Niemann report. We discussed this in Episode One, but just a refresher. This is a 72-page report in which chess.com pointed out that it was likely Hans cheated in over 100 online games, though there was no hard evidence.
[00:58:18.22] [Hans Niemann] Well, let me just clarify that the chess.com report where they accused me of cheating over 100 games is completely defamatory and, you know, as outlined in my lawsuit, you know, the person who actually wrote that report, Danny Rensch, told me himself that they knew that I had never cheated while streaming, and the most serious accusations in that report happened while I was streaming live on Twitch. And the only reason that they banned me, you know, was because they were finalizing a merger with the Play Magnus Group, and their new, you know, star ambassador was making a mockery of himself, and they needed to back up his accusations and discredit me. So chess.com's report accusing me of 100 games of cheating is frankly ridiculous. And the timing that they decided to ban me, you know, only during this merger and only after this accusation, you know, it's absolutely ridiculous, and that report should not be taken seriously whatsoever.
[00:59:08.60] [Melodic saxophone music plays]
[00:59:09.00] [Jess] This is something we've alluded to before, but Hans addresses it outright here, which is that chess.com was acquiring Play Magnus at the exact same time as these cheating allegations were hurled at him. Hans' lawyer calls it a hit piece. Basically, the implication is that chess.com created the Hans Niemann Report to back Magnus, and either fudged the numbers or cherry picked them by finding games in their database that seemed fishy.
[00:59:37.49] [Ryan] Hans seems to be implying that chess.com already had their conclusion and were essentially working in reverse to conduct their experiment, which breaks rule number one of conducting an experiment, which is to not be biased. It's like a backronym, an acronym made in reverse, like Seasonal Affective Disorder, aka SAD.
[00:59:58.89] [Music ends abruptly]
[00:59:59.25] [Jess] Wait, what? I really thought that it was just a weird coincidence that Seasonal Affective Disorder spelled SAD. It makes me sad to learn that that's a backronym.
[01:00:08.21] [Ryan] Yeah, of course it's fucking sad. It's 40 below in Canada and we all live in igloos.
[01:00:13.63] [Melodic saxophone music continues]
[01:00:14.06] Anyway, there's a few other things to discuss about this particular interview, in this episode, at least. The first is that Hans outright calls Magnus a bully.
[01:00:23.21] [Hans Niemann] This is simply a case of where bullies are going after someone because they threaten their business interests and you should be looking at the fact that--
[01:00:30.42] [Piers Morgan] So is Magnus Carlsen a bully?
[01:00:33.34] [Hans Niemann] Of course, he's a bully. He used his entire empire. He used his connections at chess.com. He leveraged the fact that there's a merger happening, and he got all of these people to attack me, and it was-- it's a bully. It's a simple thing, but, you know, I don't need to let people bully me. I'm going to stand up to him, and I stood up to him, and, you know, I look forward to competing with him and against the board again.
[01:00:52.90] [Melodic saxophone music plays]
[01:00:53.74] [Ryan] To me, Magnus being a bully is just the other side of the coin of Magnus being a vigilante for chess justice. The way Magnus went about accusing Hans was ridiculous and should have been done behind closed doors. But maybe he thought it was the only route available?
[01:01:12.31] [Jess] I think that scapegoating someone is a bullying tactic. Whether or not he intended to, Magnus handpicked Hans out of this seemingly endless bag of cheaters, and chose to throw his entire existence into the limelight for everyone to make a mockery of.
[01:01:31.12] Okay, back to the Piers interview, because this is probably the juiciest part.
[01:01:35.45] [Ryan, laughing] I mean, considering Piers' comments, it seems to me that Piers thinks the juiciest part is Hans' ass.
[01:01:43.19] [Jess] Ryan, come on.
[01:01:44.48] [Ryan] Where he poops from.
[01:01:45.74] [Jess] If you're not going to take this seriously...
[01:01:47.57] [Ryan] Just one poop joke. You said I get to squeeze one out every episode.
[01:01:50.99] [Jess] Oh, my God. I'm going to talk now, and you can have a time out and think about your life choices.
[01:01:56.10] So the juiciest part is that Hans addresses that the lawsuit is now resolved. Here's that exchange.
[01:02:04.33] [Music fades]
[01:02:04.77] [Piers Morgan] Are you still suing him for $100 million?
[01:02:07.70] [Hans Niemann] No.
[01:02:08.48] [Piers Morgan] You dropped that?
[01:02:10.04] [Terrence A Oved] The case has been resolved, Piers.
[01:02:12.20] [Piers Morgan] Yeah. Did he-- did he pay any money, or...?
[01:02:16.10] [Terrence A Oved] We can't discuss that.
[01:02:18.94] [Piers Morgan] Okay.
[01:02:19.75] [Melodic saxophone music plays]
[01:02:20.02] [Ryan] Yeah, we keep saying that we're going to get to the lawsuit in another episode, but I just want to say this: the terminology being used here is interesting. The case has been RESOLVED, but Hans can't discuss if Magnus paid him any money. To me this just means the case had to be settled with some sort of compensation.
[01:02:41.78] [Jess] Yeah, it's really unfortunate that we will probably never know the answer to how much money Hans received, assuming he did receive a payout, which seems more than likely. It is so anticlimactic to just be, like, well, the lawsuit's resolved now. It's very annoying to not be privy to the behind the scenes because of the law and the legal things. But despite how anticlimactic that is, at least that's not nearly the end of this story. We keep saying it, but there is actually more to come.
[01:03:15.30] [Music fades]
[01:03:17.74] [Gloomy music plays]
[01:03:22.15] [Ryan] So, where does this leave us? Hans Niemann is for sure a weird guy. But how much of the weirdness is just him being young? How much of it is a calculated persona he's adopted in making himself out to be chess' baddest boy?
[01:03:38.85] [Jess] You can hear it in his voice in the many clips scattered throughout this episode, and you can see it in the videos, too. He has this smirk on his face, like he's trolling everybody, and loves that we're falling for it. Just like Magnus, he's also become a caricature of himself.
[01:03:59.64] [Sombre electronic music plays]
[01:04:00.03] Maybe he didn't deserve to be the scapegoat for all cheating in chess, but on the flip side, we know that he's cheated online and doesn't seem to think it's a big deal. Maybe he did cheat at the 2022 Sinquefield Cup, and maybe he didn't. We'll probably never know.
[01:04:18.39] [Ryan] The resolution of the lawsuit is that, legally, Hans didn't cheat. But, really, only one person knows the truth. And it's not Magnus. It's not FIDE. It's not chess.com. Hans is the only one who can tell us, and one look at that smirk tells me that he probably never will.
[01:04:47.38] [Music fades]
[01:04:49.32] [Ryan, synthesized voice with reverb] Smash that like button!
[01:04:51.95] [Rooked outro plays]
[01:04:56.37] [Jess] On the next episode of Rooked, we talk about what I'm sure you've been waiting for-- the device! We discuss all things cheating: a history of how cheating has impacted chess throughout time, the technical and technological ramifications, and, of course, anal beads.
[01:05:13.62] [Object vibrating]
[01:05:16.41] [Ryan] Oh, and one last thing: we'll talk about how Magnus has publicly accused yet another up-and-coming young player of cheating over the board, this time with a watch.
[01:05:37.29] [Jess] Rooked: The Cheaters' Gambit is written and produced by me, Jess Schmidt.
[01:05:40.83] [Ryan] And by me, Ryan Webb.
[01:05:42.87] [Jess] Our amazing music is by the ever-talented Lorna Gilfedder.
[01:05:46.62] [Ryan] Our executive producers are Rooney and Indigo.
[01:05:50.10] [both] Speak.
[01:05:50.85] [Rooney and Indigo howling]
[01:05:54.04] [Rooked outro plays]
[01:05:54.49] [Ryan] This podcast is recorded on the traditional Treaty 7 territory of the Blackfoot Confederacy, the land of the Siksika, the Kainai, the Piikani, as well as the Stoney Nakoda and the Tsuut'ina Nations.
[01:06:06.16] [Jess] We acknowledge that this territory is home to the Metis nation of Alberta, Region 3 within the historical Northwest Homeland. In the spirit of respect, reciprocity, and truth, we honour and acknowledge all nations, Indigenous and non, who live, work, and play on this land, and who honour and celebrate this territory.
[01:06:25.93] [Ryan] This gathering place, and therefore this podcast, provides us with an opportunity to engage in and demonstrate reconciliation.
[01:06:33.92] [Jess] Access to clean drinking water is a basic human right, yet there are 28 long-term drinking water advisories on Indigenous reserves across Canada, including some that have been in place for more than 25 years. The Parliamentary Budget Officer of Canada identified a $138 million per year deficit in funding for the maintenance and operation of drinking water systems on reserves. The lack of clean, safe drinking water for all Canadians is a clear violation of the UN-recognized human right to water and sanitation.
[01:07:07.44] So what can you do? The first step is to educate yourself. Check and see how close you live to the nearest drinking water advisory, and take action. Write an appeal to your local and federal governments to ensure that clean drinking water is accessible for all Canadians.
[01:07:24.58] [Music fades]
[01:07:25.83] Because water is a human right.