Episode 6: The Psychology

[00:00:00.47] [Rooked theme music plays]
[00:00:06.04] [Julia Rios] Both of our partners have sort of teased us and alluded to the fact that chess is kind of this other woman in our relationships. I think a lot of people have that experience, which just speaks to the fact that it really does kind of feel like a love story, yeah.
[00:00:32.56] [Ryan] I think it's fair to say that anyone who invests any amount of time into becoming a better chess player is sort of doomed to have a love-hate relationship with the game.
[00:00:44.05] [Jess] Chess is a sport that requires a tremendous amount of dedication and time to be any good at it. But there's also no guarantee that you're ever going to master it.
[00:00:54.16] [Ryan] Psychology is the study of the mind and behaviour, so, arguably, we've actually already looked at psychology a fair bit in this podcast without ever putting a name to it. But today we're calling it psychology because we actually have a psychologist to explain some things.
[00:01:12.58] [Jess] But also because to call this episode Madness seems overly dramatic and insensitive.
[00:01:20.02] [Ryan] Plus the last thing we want to do on this podcast is be--
[00:01:24.43] [Singing] Overdramatic!
[00:01:25.21] [Playful chimes play]
[00:01:27.53] [Dun Dun Duuuuun sound effect plays]
[00:01:33.82] [Jess] Because this is a tale of chess, and for some, chess is a love story.
[00:01:40.56] [Ryan] This is also a tale of love gone bad, a tale of compulsion, pain, and hatred.
[00:01:47.52] [Jess] This is a tale of cheating, of lies, and conspiracies.
[00:01:54.26] [both] This is Rooked: The Cheaters' Gambit.
[00:02:00.56] [Music fades]
[00:02:01.55] [Gloomy music plays]
[00:02:05.04] [Ryan] I'm Ryan Webb. I play chess and podcast.
[00:02:08.22] [Jess] I'm Jess Schmidt. I podcast.
[00:02:10.62] [Ryan] Kind of a boring intro.
[00:02:11.58] [Jess] You didn't even want to do an intro last time, so I'm keeping it short and sweet. And I can't say, "I podcast and play chess" because I don't play chess. I just like talking about it.
[00:02:21.69] [Ryan] This is what you call it keeping it short and sweet.
[00:02:23.73] [Jess] Well, you're making it longer now, and I doubt anyone finds you bullying me very interesting. So why don't you just get on with it?
[00:02:30.93] [Ryan] Fine, maybe I will. Just for the record, I think that you're actually the one bullying me.
[00:02:36.60] [Jess] What are you going to do? Call HR on me?
[00:02:39.68] [Ryan] The voice you heard at the top is psychologist, chess enthusiast, and fellow podcaster, Julia Rios.
[00:02:46.79] [Julia Rios] I'm Julia Rios. I use she/her pronouns. I am in my clinical residency for my doctorate in clinical psychology. And I have been playing chess since the summer after COVID. So the summer of 2020, which means it's been about two and a half years. Wow.
[00:03:07.52] [Jess] Julia is also the co-host of one of our favourite podcasts, chessfeels, a weekly podcast about chess culture, improvement, and psychology. Her co-host is chess player, writer, and coach, JJ Lang.
[00:03:20.09] [JJ Lang] Hi, my name is JJ. They/them or he/him pronouns. I am a chess teacher and do writing, editing stuff for the US Chess Federation, and shitpost on Twitter. Yep, that's pretty much it. I've been playing chess most of my life.
[00:03:37.22] [Ryan] We like Julia and JJ for a number of reasons, but the short list is chessfeels is a really great podcast that we think everyone should listen to for their banter alone, and they're both very excellent Twitter shitposters.
[00:03:52.50] [Julia Rios] So eventually JJ and I just realized, hey, you are a professional chess teacher and an expert chess player, as much as you want to be humble about your experience, and I'm a professional psychologist, so we've got a pretty good duo here. We find ourselves entertaining, so it's been nice to see the feedback from other people, saying that they enjoy us as much as we enjoy ourselves and each other.
[00:04:17.61] [Laughs]
[00:04:18.36] [Cheerful music plays]
[00:04:18.78] [Jess] Julia has a great story about how grandmaster Daniel Naroditsky is part of what first got her into chess, but to hear that gem, you have to listen to the very first episode of chessfeels. Go ahead. We'll wait.
[00:04:33.87] Just kidding. That episode's an hour long. But seriously, add it to your queue and listen to it as soon as you're done this episode. You do have a whole month to fill before our next episode comes out.
[00:04:44.61] [Music fades]
[00:04:44.97] [Ryan] That is, unless you pay for a Patreon subscription.
[00:04:51.02] [Record scratches]
[00:04:51.43] Just kidding. It's way too early in the episode for an ad roll. But know that it's lurking and it'll get you when you least expect it.
[00:05:00.04] [Jess] JJ did share a story with us of how they got into chess, and out of it, and into it again.
[00:05:06.68] [JJ Lang] I was lucky enough to go to a middle school that had a chess team, and a couple of my nerdy friends had their parents made them join the team in sixth grade. And then they were, like, kicking my [bleep] in lunch one day in seventh grade because they had been on the chess team for a year, and I was interested, so I joined and really fell in love with it. And the teacher was a very strong player who would just spend his weekends driving us around North Carolina to go to tournaments, and play other kids, and teach us stuff, and really shared that passion. And there was just enough growing up to stay with that.
[00:05:36.70] And I kind of fell off in college, and then grad school got to the point where the thought of starting my dissertation felt so daunting that, like, trying to get over this hump from, like, intermediate class B player into the class A expert level of chess player seemed more attractive than doing my work rather than, like, harder than anything else. So I started just getting back into chess and studying more, and was living in New York for a couple of months for this exchange program thing and teaching in New York. And so I was able to go to some of the great clubs there and play most nights of the week, and just really have been hooked ever since, and was able to make a leap as an adult.
[00:06:12.02] And that made me really interested and, like, realizing just how much informative material out there in chess is really geared towards kids, probably, or people who have very good, quick pattern recognition skills and not a whole lot of verbal processing skills. So I thought that would maybe give me an interesting perspective as a teacher who worked with adults. And here we are.
[00:06:32.30] [Cheerful music players]
[00:06:32.66] [Ryan] Listener, take note of the pattern recognition piece that JJ is talking about here. We're coming back to that later in the episode. But first we wanted to ask JJ and Julia, why do they make chessfeels?
[00:06:46.04] [JJ Lang] Well, you know, as soon as Julia and I started talking about chess, we were just having some really interesting conversations, and we're just absolutely hilarious when we banter. And we're like, who wouldn't want to listen to this? And Julia specifically was talking about how there's this very strange misconception in the chess world, and probably a lot of other intellectual to pseudo-intellectual spaces, where people are very interested in the psychology of x. And what that actually means is-- well, it's anyone's guess, but it usually means something like, how can I stop being distracted by my feelings, or how can I crush my opponents more, or how can I stop being nervous? And Julia's perspective as a psychologist is, "That's so interesting because that's not what psychology is about, and those are actually not the questions that you should be asking." So the thought was, well, what if we had a podcast that really started asking those questions, exploring that, and then selfishly, getting a chance for me to talk to Julia about my chess and experience playing as a form of free therapy or mental game coaching.
[00:07:45.36] [Julia laughs]
[00:07:45.57] [Julia Rios] I think also part of what led us to want to do the podcast was just JJ and I noticing in our own conversations not only how frequently we could hear people talking about chess in a way that did misconstrue, you know, what is the psychology of chess, but also just not even defining it at all. I just kept hearing and seeing things online about the psychology of chess, but almost that no one maybe could, like, maybe didn't have the language to, or maybe they didn't really understand what were those psychological processes that they were actually trying to describe. And I actually just felt relatively well-equipped to do that.
[00:08:27.48] [Mellow electronic music plays]
[00:08:27.93] [Jess] Psychology is an impossibly broad topic for us to fully tackle in just this episode. And, also, neither of us are psychologists, so what do we even really know?
[00:08:38.13] [Ryan] Mmm, not much.
[00:08:40.05] [Jess] Exactly. So here's the short list of what we feel qualified to talk about-- the typical psychology of what kind of person plays chess and why that kind of person is also seemingly more likely to be affected by mental disorders.
[00:08:55.50] [Ryan] Obviously, we're dealing with some very sensitive topics in this episode, so we'll try our best to be as respectful as possible. Feel free to hate tweet us if we do a bad job. We're still waiting for our first hate mail here at Rooked. And it could be you!
[00:09:12.06] [Jess] Believe in yourself.
[00:09:15.27] Okay, first up-- what kind of person plays chess? You'd think that it would be someone who enjoys chess. But, again, as we touched on at the very beginning of the episode, that isn't always the case. Here's content creator and YouTuber Mike Boyd.
[00:09:30.42] [Mike Boyd] I've got a complex relationship with chess. Like, I don't know if I actually enjoy chess or not. I mean, I can't stop playing, but I also just, like, hate myself for playing chess. What I should do is just do lessons and actually work and practise, but practising chess sucks. It's so much better just to play chess.
[00:09:49.14] [Ryan] So I guess we need to distinguish between someone who plays chess and someone who studies chess. Obviously, the most elite players are the ones who do both. Here's the host of the Perpetual Chess Podcast, Ben Johnson, from our interview with him.
[00:10:04.11] [Ben Johnson] You've got to play competitive games, ideally tournaments, and then you just got to pick them apart and learn from the mistakes you made. For most people, competitive tournament chess is the best form of deliberate practise, but short of that, certainly doing tactical puzzles is a good way to go.
[00:10:21.65] [Playful music plays]
[00:10:21.99] [Ryan] That's a brief summation of what it takes to be a great chess player, but if you actually want to know more on improving your own chess games, you should read Ben's new book, Perpetual Chess Improvement: Practical Chess Advice from World-Class Players and Dedicated Amateurs. We'll link it in the show notes.
[00:10:41.88] [Jess] So far, all of this seems pretty obvious. Chess players have a love-hate relationship with playing chess, and they need to spend some time studying it, too. Maybe we just need to start from square one-- Get it? Square one?
[00:10:56.22] [Ryan] Yeah, like a1.
[00:10:57.12] Yeah, like a-- like a chessboard.
[00:10:58.17] [Ryan] Oh, yeah, I get it. Steak sauce.
[00:11:00.15] [Jess] --and figure out exactly what kind of person is most likely to play chess.
[00:11:04.59] [Mellow electronic music plays]
[00:11:05.40] [Ryan] If you're an elite player, going back to your very first introduction to chess might be something like this. You are five years old. You can hop on one foot and dress yourself. Hopefully, you go poo-poo and pee-pee in the potty. It's okay if you don't. You might just be a late bloomer. You can throw and catch a ball, pedal a bike, and walk backwards.
[00:11:31.49] [Tom Green as Gord Brody, singing] I'm the backwards man, the backwards man. The backwards man, the backwards man. I can walk backwards fast as you can. I can walk backwards fast as you can. I'm the backwards man, the backwards man.
[00:11:40.86] [Uplifting music plays]
[00:11:41.71] [Ryan] One day your father brings out a chessboard and teaches you that the little pieces in the front row move one and sometimes two squares at a time. The cute little horses are called knights, and the ones that look like little towers are the rooks. Your father tells you you're very clever for being able to play the game at your age. Maybe he even puts you into competitions where you play against other children. You're taught that playing chess is something that smart people do. It's a game of intelligence.
[00:12:15.31] [Music fades]
[00:12:16.13] [Jess] Here's chess historian Emilia Castelao's take on what kind of person plays chess.
[00:12:21.31] [Emilia Castelao] Chess just has this allure to people that they don't really, like, understand but people want to watch people play chess, even if they don't really know how to play. And people want to, like, learn how to play chess. There's kind of this mystery of, like, really smart people play chess. People who can think beyond the standard ways of thinking are people that play chess.
[00:12:46.22] [Jess] And here's what author Brin-Jonathan Butler thinks.
[00:12:49.28] [Brin-Jonathan Butler] Well, I think-- I think chess at the highest level is an unbelievably sadistic pursuit. This is a fictional narrative that these people buy into with their entire lives, and many of the people that I interviewed sort of adjacent to chess said, "This is-- I've known drug addicts with cocaine or heroin. Nothing is as addictive as this game for a certain kind of person."
[00:13:12.95] You know, go to the Chess Forum just off of Washington Square Park, and what looked like a brigade of homeless people playing there, most of them have PhDs-- and are homeless. What's the reason? Is it drugs? No, it's chess. So it has that kind of power for a lot of people. And I think a big part of the draw is the sadism at the heart of it. So if you think that your whole life has been telescoped where you don't really know who you are in anything beyond who you are on the chessboard, and what your rating is, and what title you're pursuing, to be dispatched carries a weight to it that I think is the mental equivalent to being knocked out in public.
[00:13:56.13] [Mellow electronic music plays]
[00:13:56.94] [Ryan] The more you play, the more chess becomes a part of your identity. Losing games feels very personal, and winning makes you want to play more games so you can recapture that feeling again, and again, and again. Here's FIDE Master James Canty III talking about his own development in handling losses.
[00:14:20.61] [James Canty III] You lose a game, you take it very hard. And I used to do this. I used to lose games and be, like, I'm not talking to nobody for a day, or I would just sit in a room and study for the rest of the night, not even eat because I was pissed about the game. So just studying all night long, stuff like that. So now, yeah, I'll lose a game, but if I lose a game, okay, I feel a little better. How did I lose? Let's get better. Emotionally, you're better too, as well. So there's a lot to it.
[00:14:41.88] [Ryan] And here's our resident Mental Game Coach, Bill Cole.
[00:14:45.60] [Bill Cole] This is a sport you chose where, unlike other sports, one blunder can kill you. But in tennis, it never kills you, one blunder. You can always come back. Golf, you can come back. In chess, if you blunder, you might die. So you have to just accept that that's the case, but even if it does occur, view it as a challenge, and use your creativity, and see if you can hang on and turn it around, and then you're going to have an incredible story to tell.
[00:15:14.59] [Cheerful music plays]
[00:15:15.40] [Ryan] This picture we're painting here matches some chess players-- not all, since the majority of players in the sport are not ever going to be ranked among the top 100. This is definitely more of the typical path for an elite player.
[00:15:31.43] [Jess] But just given the sheer amount of studies that have been undertaken to examine the link between chess and intelligence, it's likely that even as an unrated typical chess player, you'd probably consider yourself to have better-than-average cognitive abilities, despite the fact that most of the top experts in chess argue that they themselves are not that smart or intelligent outside of chess.
[00:15:55.96] [Ryan] Here's GM Levan Aronian in an interview that took place in the wake of the 2022 Sinquefield Cup cheating accusations.
[00:16:03.45] [Levon Aronian] Well, I think it quite often happens when young players play very well, there is all these accusations towards them. I mean, all of my colleagues are pretty much paranoid, and quite often I was the one telling them, come on, guys. I mean, I know myself. I'm an idiot and I'm a good player.
[00:16:22.62] [Mellow electronic
[00:16:23.00] music plays]
[00:16:23.38] [Jess] He rushes through it so quickly you might not have caught it, but part of what Levon is talking about here is paranoia. We're going to get to that in a minute, because although it's becoming increasingly common in chess, I personally think it does belong in the category of atypical psychology. And we still need to get through the typical chess player portrait first.
[00:16:43.75] [Ryan] When it comes to studying intelligence and chess, one of the more recent fields that seems to be getting more attention lately is pattern recognition. Especially with the rise of computer assistants in chess training, the increased focus on memorizing long lines of theory has altered the way the game is played on a pretty fundamental level. The more you study and practise calculation, the easier it is for you to assess moves at any given point of any game that you play. But is this intelligence or just high-level pattern recognition? Or is it both? Here's Mike again.
[00:17:22.91] [Mike Boyd] And another thing that good chess players surprised me with was their ability to memorize the board at any particular point. I said, "Do you want to go through the game?" after we revealed our scandal that we'd pulled on Michael, and he said, "Yeah." And Kim was loading up the moves, and he was like, "Ah, no, no, no, no need." It just went through the whole game-- and it was a long game, like 40 moves or something-- and I couldn't believe that he could just do that.
[00:17:42.74] [Ryan] So back to being a typical chess player. Maybe your name is Hans. Or maybe it's Magnus. Maybe it's Viswanathan.
[00:17:52.45] [Jess] Maybe it's Wenjun or Judit. Another thing we've left out of this little picture so far is gender. But with women making up only 11% of FIDE-rated players, we have a 9 out of 10 chance in guessing that this typical chess player is likely a boy. We're going to talk more about this next episode, but for now, here's a teaser of JJ talking about how appearance and rating can make a big difference in how other players treat you.
[00:18:19.61] [JJ Lang] I don't have the experience of people default assuming I have no idea what I'm talking about based off of how I look, or my pronouns, or appearance. But there is this funny thing that happens, because chess does have these relatively universal ratings, where if I walk into any local tournament and they see that I'm playing on the top board because I'm the highest-rated person there, then that lends a sort of authority that I don't usually find myself having as a not very loud, masculine presenting, muscular, any of the sorts of things that might track being seen as authoritative or, like, on wealth class things of, like, the way I dress or any of those things. But there's just this, like, number that establishes me as having authority that I don't have to do anything for, and it's even more authority than I might usually get just being a white dude who rolls into some of these spaces.
[00:19:15.48] [Ryan] And here's Julia's thoughts, too. But again, we'll get more into this next episode when JJ and Julia return to talk about misogyny in chess.
[00:19:25.02] [Julia Rios] You can just think historically, who was able, and allowed, and trained to play chess? Men. It creates a male-dominated space and it stays a male-dominated space. I really think in a lot of ways, it's as simple as that.
[00:19:39.19] I had someone publicly trying to explain to me that the reason more women don't play chess is because chess is hard. And when I repeated that back to them as an example of a very sexist way of thinking, that men can do intellectually difficult things better than women can do them, they really had a hard time understanding why that was a sexist thing to say.
[00:20:05.32] [Gloomy music plays]
[00:20:12.91] [Ryan] So that's the baseline of a typical chess player. Probably a boy, likely intelligent, maybe a bit of a sadist, definitely competitive, and possibly not the most well-rounded. But that comes with dedication in any sport, not just chess.
[00:20:31.23] [Jess] But one of the things I was the most curious about in chess psychology, outside of the baseline of a typical player, is what sort of standard deviations do you tend to see at the highest level-- you know, things that in general don't seem super prevalent in what I would class as the typical population but that seem to be a lot more likely to happen in chess?
[00:20:56.12] [Music fades]
[00:20:59.02] [Sinister synth music plays]
[00:20:59.51] [Jess] A 2019 article on the Chessentials' website titled Chess and Mental Illness: 12 Chess Players Who Suffered from Severe Mental Problems opens with this quote from chess writer and player Bill Hartston: "Chess doesn't drive people mad. In fact, it keeps mad people sane."
[00:21:17.05] [Ryan] Whether you call it madness, mental illness, or something else, unfortunately, chess players do seem to have a higher than average disposition to various disorders that fall under this umbrella. To do a full study of this topic would take way more time and research than what we've set aside here. So instead we offer you some case studies focused on paranoia and craziness in chess.
[00:21:43.79] [Music fades]
[00:21:44.28] [Ryan] Speaking of crazy.
[00:21:46.16] [Cheerful music plays]
[00:21:46.50] We'd love to introduce you to the Crazy Crows Chess Club.
[00:21:50.88] [Jess] But, Ryan, we've talked about other chess organizations like Lichess on this podcast before. What makes Crazy Crows different?
[00:21:58.92] [Ryan] I'm so glad you asked, Jess. The mission of Crazy Crows Chess Club is to bring high-quality art and utility to NFTs, and the way they're doing that is through chess.
[00:22:09.63] [Jess] What's an NFT, Ryan?
[00:22:11.34] [Ryan] I actually don't know.
[00:22:13.80] [Jess] Okay, well, I was just trying to let you have a little bit of the spotlight here, but I know what NFTs are. NFT stands for non-fungible token, meaning it's 100% unique and can't be replaced with something else. One of the problems with this newish tech is that, like a lot of art forms, the utility is not always readily apparent.
[00:22:32.73] [Ryan] Right, because people tend to think that something being attractive means it's mutually exclusive from being functional. Like me.
[00:22:41.07] [Jess] Exactly. And that's the problem that the founders of Crazy Crows set out to solve. With multiple years of experience in the Web3 and crypto space, they're pushing the boundaries of what's possible for NFTs.
[00:22:53.83] [Sombre music plays]
[00:22:54.25] By joining the Crazy Crows Chess Club, you gain access to their growing community of like-minded chess enthusiasts. And with the purchase of one of their Crow NFTs, you also get invitations to play in exclusive prize tournaments, dailies, and eligibility for a free account on chess.com.
[00:23:11.20] [Ryan] Crazy Crows also partners with other communities where having a Crow in your wallet is the only way you can gain access to exclusive content.
[00:23:19.45] [Jess] Not only is the art of the Crow NFTs very detailed and, honestly, just awesome, but by holding a Crazy Crow, you're able to participate in special events and even receive special airdrops.
[00:23:32.74] [Music fades]
[00:23:33.63] [Cheerful music plays]
[00:23:34.07] [Ryan] Go to crazycrows.club to join their Discord community and explore a new way to play chess and use NFTs. That's C-R-A-Z-Y-C-R-O-W-S dot C-L-U-B. crazycrows.club.
[00:23:49.61] [Jess] See you on the Discord.
[00:23:53.48] [Music fades]
[00:23:56.31] [Comical slide whistle plays]
[00:23:58.21] [Dramatic music plays]
[00:23:58.69] [Jess] Bobby Fischer's name is synonymous with being one of the greatest players who ever lived. To this day, he's still a much-admired figure in the chess world. But his name is also synonymous with extreme paranoia and madness, especially later in his career. Before we get to that, though, here's Brin again, talking about how Fischer fits into his own love of chess.
[00:24:21.61] [Brin-Jonathan Butler] As a little boy, I've just always loved objects that have enigmatic histories, and the chess board captured my attention more than any object. I love board games. I love card games and that sort of thing. But none of them allowed you to feel quite as invested personally. Something was at stake with chess that was totally different from every other game, and I felt that sort of dark power to it, that it seemed to distill you in a way that, when you won, it was such an incredible feeling to dominate somebody-- not necessarily a good feeling, either. And, similarly, to lose just felt like you'd been intellectually squashed by somebody. That's what kind of brought me into the power of chess, was a sort of ominous feeling that I intuited about it as a really little boy.
[00:25:16.28] My mother is Hungarian, and Bobby Fischer's biological father is also a Hungarian. My mother is also a Hungarian Jew, as was his father. So when I was 18, I just became totally obsessed by Bobby Fischer's story, both as a prodigy and world champion, but just as a personality, just one of the world's great characters, and became arguably the most famous face in the world for a while playing chess. And in 1500 years that chess has existed, mainly the world champions have been pretty obscure to a general audience, but suddenly Bobby Fischer-- almost seemed like the major accomplishments of the Cold War were the US getting a man on the moon and defeating the Soviets at chess through Bobby Fischer, who unlike the Soviets where there was this massive investment in their team, here was Fischer in a little Brooklyn apartment with a single mother teaching himself how to play. And he just looked so fascinating.
[00:26:19.13] [Sinister synth music plays]
[00:26:19.49] [Ryan] There's no way that we can cover everything we have to say about Bobby Fischer in this episode. Expect some upcoming Patreon bonuses about him. There's some fascinating stories.
[00:26:32.42] [Cheerful music plays]
[00:26:32.78] Did you know that Rooked: The Cheaters' Gambit is an indie podcast?
[00:26:36.86] [Jess] Indie as in independent. We don't receive any sponsorship support. Ryan and I make Rooked in our spare time for free.
[00:26:44.24] [Ryan] And don't get us wrong. We love getting to make this podcast exactly the way we want to. But we've been thinking that maybe with some support, we could make this show even better.
[00:26:54.29] [Tim Robinson] I got to figure out how to make money on this thing. It's simply too good.
[00:26:58.16] [Jess] So, like many creators, we've joined Patreon.
[00:27:01.55] [Ryan] Can I just ask, what is Patreon?
[00:27:04.22] [Jess] Great question, Ryan. Patreon is a way for fans to join and engage with their favourite creators' community. Basically, it's a platform that allows you to support creators financially. Currently, we have two tiers open: the Pawn level, if you want to support us for 5 Canadian dollars a month-- cheaper than mailing us an envelope of loonies and toonies-- and the King level, for $20 per month. If you choose to support us at the King tier, we'll also mention you by name in the episode credits. And if you support us at any level on Patreon, you'll also be able to access bonus content, exclusive for our Patreon members.
[00:27:40.64] [Ryan] Plus, we'll send you nudes.
[00:27:42.44] [Jess] I will not be sending nudes, but whatever you work out between you and the Patrons is your own business, Ryan.
[00:27:48.47] [Ryan] Are you sure we should be doing this? Patreon looks like they stole their logo directly from Target.
[00:27:53.93] [Jess] You are the only person I've ever had to describe Patreon to, so I don't really trust your judgement here, honestly.
[00:28:00.58] [Cheerful music plays]
[00:28:00.95] But that's a good point. If you want to support us but monthly donations don't fit your budget, you can also buy us a coffee instead at buymeacoffee.com/rooked. Or we also really appreciate ratings, reviews, and shares, too, and those are free.
[00:28:15.90] [Ryan] We love making this podcast, and our motivation is listeners like you, so we really appreciate your support at any level.
[00:28:23.78] [Jess] Go to patreon.com/rooked to support the podcast. That's patreon.com/rooked. Thanks for listening.
[00:28:33.70] [Comical slide whistle plays]
[00:28:36.38] [Jess] Ha-ha, gotcha! Okay, back to Bobby Fischer.
[00:28:39.32] [Mellow electronic music plays]
[00:28:39.68] [Ryan] Bobby Fischer was born in Chicago, Illinois on March 9th, 1943. That's my birthday!
[00:28:46.64] [Jess] You were born in 1943?
[00:28:48.50] [Ryan] No, March 9th. I'm not that old.
[00:28:52.14] [Jess] He's a Pisces baby, just like you.
[00:28:53.82] [Ryan] Yay, Pisces.
[00:28:55.19] [Jess] He learned to play chess at the age of 6 and came up in the Brooklyn and Manhattan chess clubs.
[00:29:00.35] [Ryan] He became the youngest International Grandmaster, at that time, at the age of 15.
[00:29:06.17] [Jess] He reportedly had an IQ of 181, but he didn't do very well in school, eventually dropping out before he graduated high school.
[00:29:14.36] [Ryan] From the very start of his career, Fischer made a name for himself with his ruthless play, obsession with the game, and erratic, paranoid commentary.
[00:29:24.20] [Jess] Here's an excerpt from a 2017 article titled A psychological Autopsy of Bobby Fischer by Joseph G Ponterotto. Quote, "At a 1958 tournament in Yugoslavia, Mikhail Tal, a legendary attacking Grandmaster and one-time World Champion, mocked chess prodigy Bobby Fischer for being cuckoo. Tal's taunting may have been a deliberate attempt to rattle Fischer, then just 15, but already a major force in the highly competitive world of high-level chess. But others from that world, including a number of Grandmasters who'd spent time with him, thought Fischer not just eccentric but deeply troubled. At a tournament in Bulgaria four years later, US Grandmaster Robert Byrne suggested that Fischer see a psychiatrist, to which Fischer replied that 'a psychiatrist ought to pay me for the privilege of working on my brain.' According to journalist Dylan Loeb McClain, Hungarian-born Grandmaster Paul Benko commented, 'I am not a psychiatrist, but it was obvious that he was not normal. I told him, you are paranoid, and he said that paranoids can be right,'" end quote.
[00:30:34.22] [Dramatic music plays]
[00:30:34.55] [Ryan] Fischer was famous for being a loner who lived and breathed chess but thought of hardly anything else. Here's lawyer David Franklin talking about Fischer. Or is he talking about Hans Niemann? You decide.
[00:30:50.85] [David Franklin] Fischer had this one-person-against-the-world mentality, where he just was very brash, and he would say incredibly arrogant things. Now, Fischer could back them up because he was the strongest player in the world.
[00:31:05.70] [Jess] In 1972, despite-- or perhaps in part due to-- his idiosyncrasies and unusual personality, Fischer was irrefutably one of the greatest players in the world. In a game that would later come to be known as the Match of the Century, he became the first American-born World Chess Champion by defeating Boris Spassky in Reykjavik and ending the over-20-year streak of Russia's domination of the title.
[00:31:32.22] [Ryan] We'll talk more about the Soviet chess machine in our episode about the history of chess, but it's a legacy that is still felt in the sport to this day, and one that the already paranoid Fischer was highly suspect of.
[00:31:48.11] [Sinister synth music plays]
[00:31:48.57] [Jess] Fischer was not shy in sharing his opinion that his inability to win the World Chess Championship prior to 1972 was due to the Communist conspiracy rather than his own skill at the game. He had for several years already been a vocal outcrier, saying that he had begun learning Russian to sniff out their cheating, and that he overheard them analyzing his games while he was playing-- which was prohibited.
[00:32:14.22] [Ryan] He also argued that the format of the World Championship tournament was problematic, as it allowed the numerous Soviet players to collude as a team and orchestrate a series of draws and fixes, claiming that this helped them save energy and dominate in the finals. By the way, we'll talk about this more in another episode, but match fixing continues to be a problem in high-level chess even today. Here's Emilia again talking about the Russian collusion conspiracy.
[00:32:45.39] [Emilia Castelao] I think that FIDE did a really good job at the time of, you know, recognizing that the Russians were colluding. There was also a few mathematicians and statisticians-- they published an academic article and they were able to, like, show that, you know, the Russians were colluding. Like, it wasn't just pure coincidences that they were getting these draws.
[00:33:08.16] [Mellow electronic music plays]
[00:33:08.58] [Jess] Just a couple of years later, in 1975, Fischer refuses to play the World Chess Championship challenger, Anatoly Karpov because he was reportedly offended by the chess style that the World Championship title was dictated by. Instead, Fischer advocated for what he viewed as a fairer structure by eliminating points from draws. As Fischer and FIDE were unable to reach a solution, Fischer was stripped of his championship, and it was awarded to Karpov without any games being played.
[00:33:39.06] [Ryan] Fischer was the first and only player to give up his World Championship title, until 2023 when Magnus Carlsen became the second in all of history. And if you remember from when we talked about this in our Magnus episode, he cited reasons that aren't that dissimilar from Fischer. The old rules of chess are making the game stagnant, boring, and not worth the time to play. Magnus is being as righteous as Fischer, with slightly different terms, sure, but it's easy to draw parallels between their motivations. And that's something Magnus might stand to be wary because of what happened to Fischer after forfeiting his World Championship title.
[00:34:19.00] [Sinister synth music plays]
[00:34:19.21] [Jess] Which is that he basically all but disappeared from chess and from the world in general. He moves back to the Los Angeles area and then would spend the next nearly 20 years of his life on the edge of vagrancy and essentially in hiding. His eccentricities become even more pronounced. He begins to read copiously, especially anti-Semitic texts, despite the fact that his mother was Jewish. Bobby spoke often about his fear that he was being watched by the Russians, and it's thought that him keeping a low profile was to avoid their attention.
[00:34:50.86] [Ryan] In 1992, in honour of the 20th anniversary of the famed Match of the Century, Fischer and Spassky met again to play a $5 million rematch in Yugoslavia. Travel to Yugoslavia by American citizens was illegal at that time due to economic sanctions. Plus, Bobby hadn't filed or paid income tax on the little money he had made in the prior 15 years. Facing extradition to the United States to stand and potentially be jailed for these criminal charges, Fischer instead went on the run across Europe, re-entering pseudo-hiding for the second time in his life over the next decade.
[00:35:29.56] Here's an excerpt from an article published in The Guardian titled The Endgame of Bobby Fischer, summarizing his controversial views that he espoused during that time. "Ever since drawing the wrath of his government by playing that chess match in Serbia, the one-time American hero and scourge of the Soviets became almost dementedly anti-US and anti, quote, 'the stinking Jews' under whose, quote, 'total control' he said America had fallen. A vociferous Holocaust denier, he told a Philippines radio station that the New York attacks of September 11th, 2001 had been, quote, 'wonderful news,' adding that it was time, quote, 'to finish off the US once and for all.'"
[00:36:12.12] [Sinister synth music plays]
[00:36:12.61] [Jess] I hope that this goes without saying, but we do not support these views, and we really hope that nobody else listening to this does, either. Fischer was really sick. I think this is evidence of that.
[00:36:25.18] Fischer would eventually give up his US citizenship after being detained at a Japanese airport in July 2004 for trying to leave the country with an invalid passport. He ends up spending eight months in jail there, before he's freed with the help of the Icelandic government in 2005, where he's granted citizenship as a thanks for putting them on the map in the 1972 Match of the Century. He lives a fairly quiet life there, occasionally speaking out against the US, continuing to spout anti-Semitic diatribes to anyone who will listen, reading books, and condemning the state of modern chess. He lives that way until his death by kidney failure on January 17th, 2008 at the age of 64. Here's some of his parting words that he gave in an interview before his passing.
[00:37:10.90] [Bobby Fischer] I hate chess. I hate chess, really.
[00:37:12.58] [reporter] You hate chess?
[00:37:13.00] [Bobby Fischer] Yeah.
[00:37:13.30] [reporter] Why do you hate chess, being probably and possibly the best chess player ever? How does--
[00:37:19.00] [Bobby Fischer] Because I know what chess is all about.
[00:37:21.67] [reporter] Yeah.
[00:37:22.24] [Bobby Fischer] It's all about memorization. It's all about pre-arrangement.
[00:37:26.14] [reporter] But creativity, creativity.
[00:37:27.94] [Bobby Fischer] Yeah, creativity is-- is lower down on the list.
[00:37:33.61] [reporter] So you don't--
[00:37:34.60] [Bobby Fischer] All chess is, you're banging your head against the wall with this theory that you are, you know-- you're trying to find some little improvement on move 18 or 20. It's ridiculous. It gets harder and harder and harder. You need more and more computers. You need more and more people working for you. You know, for what?
[00:37:59.78] [reporter] And less and less talent?
[00:38:00.32] [Bobby Fischer] Yeah, and less and less...
[00:38:03.29] [reporter] Creatives?
[00:38:04.40] [Bobby Fischer] Yeah. It's ridiculous. Everything, why, why?
[00:38:08.96] [Jess] Here's Brin again.
[00:38:10.22] [Brin-Jonathan Butler] Bobby Fischer's act after the chess board arguably made him more famous than anything he did on the chess board, by becoming the chess world's JD Salinger. I think that's where chess becomes really interesting.
[00:38:24.18] [Mellow electronic music plays]
[00:38:26.92] [Ryan] Fisher's story is complicated. On the one hand, he is beloved for his contributions to the game. His life and career inspired movies, TV shows, and books. He's arguably responsible for popularizing the sport in the USA, but like a lot of our heroes, he ended up dealing with some really human problems.
[00:38:50.17] [Jess] Bobby Fischer leaving the chess circuit really was kind of the beginning of the end for him. And in our opinion, his paranoia that he was being watched by the American and Russian governments ended up taking a huge toll on him mentally. And that paranoia wasn't unwarranted. He probably was on watch lists for both of those countries until the day he died. But he's not the first player to have his career impacted by paranoia. And as you're about to hear, he's also not the last.
[00:39:20.85] [Melodic saxophone music plays]
[00:39:21.61] [Ryan] In Episode 2 Part B: the Players: Hans-- Jesus, who the hell named these episodes?-- we briefly discussed how Vladimir Kramnik recently accused Hans of cheating in an online game against him. If you'll remember, Hans jokingly took to Twitter, suggesting that Kramnik attend an in-person training camp with him so Kramnik could see his technique up close and personal. Hans also offered a $10,000 reward for anyone who had information on Kramnik cheating in the 2006 World Championship. Remember Toiletgate? Kramnik was accused by his opponent of using a chess engine on a phone in the toilet stall on a frequent basis, a.k.a. Poopie Talkie. So that's the context, and it matters now because lately it seems like Kramnik can't go a day without accusing a new elite chess player of cheating.
[00:40:12.11] [Jess] He's picked some pretty high-profile targets to finger, including world number 3 Hikaru Nakamura. You might remember from the cheating episode that we also discussed how Kramnik called out Hikaru last November when Hikaru had a winning streak of 45.5 out of 46 blitz games online. Here's one of Kramnik's chess.com blog posts from November 20th, 2023 titled INFORMATION, all caps, by the way. Quote, "Some small new piece of statistics recently noticed. A player had scored 45.5 out of 46 consecutive three minutes blitz games against approximately 2950 in average rating opposition. Few different players. Which is equivalent to 3600 plus performance in those 46 consecutive games. I believe everyone would find this interesting," end quote.
[00:41:06.26] [Melodic saxophone music plays]
[00:41:06.71] [Ryan] If you're not part of the chess world, you might not know this, but calling a game or series of games "interesting" is basically just straight up accusing of cheating. And let's not forget that Kramnik is a former World Champion who has thousands of followers, so his accusations carry a lot of weight behind them.
[00:41:26.03] [Jess] Kramnik follows this up with another blog post a day later, this one titled On Resent Hysteria. I understand that English is his second language, so Kramnik can get a pass on resent-- recent-- but I don't know that you should be using hysteria in this context.
[00:41:44.07] [Music fades]
[00:41:44.51] Anyway, here's an excerpt from that post. Quote, "In the last few years particularly, A LOT OF PROFESSIONAL PLAYERS have either expressed to me that Hikaru is cheating or asked me if I think Hikaru is cheating. Having checked Hikaru's statistics carefully, I have found NUMEROUS low probabilities performances both of him and some of his opponents, some of which have EXTREMELY low mathematical probability according to mathematicians, way below 1% according to the calculations of those professional mathematicians. I will continue to present various TRUE statistics and couldn't care less about the names of the players involved because we chess players are in one boat equal in rights and must be treated in the same manner whatever rating on PR some might have," end quote.
[00:42:39.62] [Melodic saxophone music plays]
[00:42:40.25] [Ryan] I'm not really sure where Kramnik gets off calling his statistics true and mathematician verified when they're just not. Or at least if they are, he doesn't actually say who verified the numbers. Kramnik's accusations even spurred chess.com to take action and release their own statement. Here's Hikaru reading part of that statement to his followers during a livestream.
[00:43:03.20] [Hikaru Nakamura] "In the case of the recent accusations against Hikaru Nakamura by Vladimir Kramnik, we can say that we have generated nearly 2000 individual reports on Hikaru's games in our Fair Play system and have found no incidents of cheating. As to the allegations about Hikaru's incredible performance streaks, including winning 45.5 games out of 46, we have also looked at the statistics behind this. Our team has done the math and various simulations of streaks where a player like Hikaru has played more than 50,000 games."
[00:43:30.87] [Melodic saxophone music plays]
[00:43:31.69] [Ryan] So Kramnik seems to think there's something fishy with Hikaru's win rate. In chess, there's something known as farming and adopting. Adopting is when you beat a player 10 straight games in a row, and farming is choosing to play easier-to-beat opponents in order to win some rating. One of the ways Hikaru is able to go on these long streaks is by farming and adopting. To go on these streaks is not that abnormal, and Hikaru has done it dozens of times.
[00:44:01.93] [Jess] Over the course of about a month, Kramnik publishes dozens of blog posts filled with convoluted statistics that don't actually prove anything. He kind of goes off the rails a bit, making it his mission to end cheating in chess-- which, like, good on him, but this is definitely not the right way to do it. He even goes as far as making a petition for chess.com to review Hikaru's recent online activity. We've linked it in the show notes. Here's a little example of some of the comments under the Reasons for Signing section. And, obviously, these are all trolls, but I'm not sure if Kramnik actually knows that.
[00:44:42.22] [Ryan] Hans Niemann says, "Cheaters should speak for themselves."
[00:44:46.03] [Jess] Magnus Carlsen writes, "Only I am capable of this performance. Expose this fraud."
[00:44:52.15] [Ryan] Hikaru's butthole-- I'm not kidding, this is the real username-- writes, "Hikaru has wreaked havoc on me with the XXL vibrating dildos. Enough is enough."
[00:45:02.62] [Object vibrating]
[00:45:06.64] [Jess] Queen Elizabeth writes--
[00:45:07.93] [Jess, with English accent] "The integrity of the noble game of chess must be upheld. I urge thorough investigation into these allegations to preserve the spirit of fair play and honour that define our beloved game. Let us stand together to ensure that justice and integrity prevail. With concern, Elizabeth.
[00:45:29.83] [Ryan] I like how Elizabeth just got, like, older and older as you went through that.
[00:45:33.19] [Both laugh]
[00:45:33.46] [Jess] Well, she's dead now.
[00:45:34.48] [Ryan] And Kramnik himself writes, "I'm a massive clown."
[00:45:39.01] [Horn honks]
[00:45:39.98] [Jess] Following chess.com's statement in support of Hikaru, Kramnik again resumes blogging on chess.com, writing, "Calling my recent efforts on help improving anti-cheating efficiency of chess.com platform, quote, accusations of Hikaru Nakamura by Vladimir Kramnik, end quote, is a clear public disinformation, which obviously can cause a huge image damages for me, and therefore I offer the chess.com platform in 24 hours' time frame to exclude and refute this sentence from this report together with public apologies to me for this misconduct.
[00:46:15.29] [Ryan] Kramnik is basically saying that he's the one being victimized because he believes he didn't actually say Hikaru was cheating. He just wants his games to be analyzed, but, I mean, when you look at it, Kramnik is saying Hikaru is cheating.
[00:46:29.39] [Jess] Why would you ask for someone's games to be analyzed if it wasn't because you thought they were cheating? That just does not make sense to me.
[00:46:36.08] [Ryan] Yeah. Kramnik playing the victim is not really a good look.
[00:46:39.26] [Jess] It just doesn't make sense. But that seems to happen a lot when we talk about Kramnik.
[00:46:43.82] [Melodic saxophone music plays]
[00:46:44.10] [Ryan] Unsurprisingly, chess.com did not apologize for anything, and Kramnik's 24-hour ultimatum came and went without anything ever happening.
[00:46:54.10] [Jess] So at this point, it's clear that Kramnik is losing the plot a bit. And it goes back to what we discussed last episode on sportsmanship. Accusations without proof are destructive, and the repercussions are further reaching than we can fully comprehend. Take Hans for example. We're going to get to his latest update in a minute, by the way. But first, here's what Hikaru had to say about fighting back against Kramnik.
[00:47:21.37] [Music fades]
[00:47:22.19] [Hikaru Nakamura] What's really sad about this is that Kramnik is looking at this from a very specific angle, or at least in my opinion this is, which is that Kramnik thinks I'm being loud about this because I've done something wrong. Unfortunately for Kramnik, that's not what this is about. What this is about is plain and simple. You don't get to make false accusations when you are not an expert. You don't get to make false accusations when you do not have data to back yourself up, and that is the bottom line. And also beyond that, it's not really about me. It's about a couple of other people, very clearly. They don't really have a way of responding to it. That is the bottom line. They really don't have a way of responding to it. So there's nothing they can do. So when I'm being loud about it, it's because someone doesn't get to say these things without actual proof. They don't get to falsely accuse people over and over again without having to pay a price. That's the bottom line. And so, that's the actual reason why I'm being loud about this whole situation. It's not about me.
[00:48:11.33] Kramnik simply has no respect for anybody at the end of the day. These are not my stats. These are stats from people who've worked in the field, people who know what they're talking about. Kramnik is not an expert in the field. He did not even go to high school.
[00:48:22.77] [Melodic saxophone music plays]
[00:48:23.07] [Ryan] Suffice it to say, these real stats prove the baselessness of Kramnik's allegations and finally prompt chess.com to mute Kramnik's blog, on Christmas Eve of all days. This takes us back to the age-old question: why would someone cheat in the first place? Here's Kramnik.
[00:48:42.54] [Vladimir Kramnik] Why do people cheat online? One, actually, it's a very important one, very serious one, is Eggo.
[00:48:50.67] [Jess] It's for the Eggos, y'all.
[00:48:52.41] [boy] Hey. Leggo my Eggo.
[00:48:55.15] [girl] Leggo my Eggo, Jessica.
[00:48:58.50] [Jess] But on this point, Kramnik is right.
[00:49:00.89] [Melodic saxophone music plays]
[00:49:01.23] Ego plays such a large role in chess, and that probably is in part why cheating seems to be on the rise.
[00:49:08.14] [Ryan] Making baseless allegations and tweeting out names of high-level GMs who should be looked into further is ultimately just making a farce out of cheating in chess.
[00:49:18.24] [Jess] Kramnik has gone as far as attacking a 12-year-old prodigy online, calling him a cheater. This kid's career could be ruined in the blink of an eye, and there's no repercussions for the accuser who's choosing to say things without supplying any real proof. This vigilantism is very much on par with how Magnus handled the whole Sinquefield scandal. And the paranoia and delusions are a bit reminiscent of our boy Bobby. And if we can take anything objective away from Fischer's tragic story, it's that it's a pretty slippery slope from paranoia to madness.
[00:49:58.37] [Gloomy music plays]
[00:50:01.25] [Ryan] One day you're a chess champion. The next day your title is stripped from you for pooping all over a hotel bathtub.
[00:50:09.05] [Jess] Okay, you need a better segue than that, because you didn't even say that we're not talking about Kramnik and Fischer anymore.
[00:50:14.39] [Ryan] Oh, yeah, sorry. Poor writing choice.
[00:50:17.36] [Jess] Okay, go on. Tell us about the pooping, then.
[00:50:20.86] [Playful music plays]
[00:50:21.28] [Ryan] Okay, so this actually happened in Chinese chess. If you know what Go is it's kind of a lot like Go mixed with chess. 48-year-old Yan Chenglong, who was a newly crowned tournament champion, had his prize rescinded for defecating in a hotel bathtub. This led to rumours that he had pulled off the win with the help of-- wait for it-- high-tech anal beads.
[00:50:45.79] [Jess] This again? This one's on you, Elon. According to the statement released by CXA, Yan Chenglong celebrated his tournament victory with a night of drinking with some friends in his hotel room in the Hainan province on December 17th, 2023. When he checked out the next day, hotel staff discovered excrement in the bathtub.
[00:51:06.63] [Sinister synth music plays]
[00:51:06.97] [Ryan] I don't know about you, but that's not usually where I poop. The CXA also stated that he, quote, "Damaged the hotel's public property, violated public order and good customs, and caused a negative impact on Chinese chess, which was very bad in nature," end quote.
[00:51:25.01] [Playful music plays]
[00:51:25.28] Of course, the Chinese social media platform Weibo started spreading a theory that Yan had used wireless anal beads to cheat and later removed them in the bathtub. I don't think you'd have to shit all over a bathtub to remove [bleep] beads, but what do I know?
[00:51:40.85] [Jess] The CXA could not confirm whether or not Yan cheated, but we here at Rooked can confirm that pooping in bathtubs and just leaving it is something you should probably speak to your therapist about.
[00:51:52.16] [Ryan] And that's not even the only hotel destruction story to make it into this episode, because we can't go an entire episode without talking about chess's baddest bad boy, Hans Niemann, the bad boy.
[00:52:05.39] [Jess] On February 2nd, 2024-- so last week if you're listening to this when it drops-- the Saint Louis Chess Club tweeted the following. Quote, "The Saint Louis Chess Club is committed to providing a world-class environment for all levels of chess players to play and enjoy chess. At our competitive tournaments, participants are expected to adhere to an agreement that outlines expectations of the players, including a code of conduct. After consideration of recent events, the Saint Louis Chess Club has made the difficult decision not to extend an invitation to GM Hans Niemann to participate in any invitational tournaments organized by the club in 2024. This decision was based on GM Hans Niemann's demonstrated inappropriate behaviour, including damaging private property, rude comments, and an uncooperative attitude, resulting in a failure to fulfil contractual obligations. This decision was not made lightly, and we hope this serves as an opportunity for GM Hans Niemann to experience personal reflection and growth. We will reevaluate this determination for events in future years, assuming notable progress is achieved."
[00:53:12.08] [Ryan] Immediately, Hans responds on Twitter. Quote, "I'd just like to immediately clarify how completely inaccurate this is. I'll be posting a full detailed video going through the entire timeline since Fall 2022 and how the Saint Louis Chess Club has treated me since then. In all of 2023, I have received zero invitations to tournaments and could not even get a response to an email or call for months on end. I was assured shortly before the US Championships that I was not blacklisted by the club and would receive invitations in 2024. I was assured that my relationship with the club was fine and was never made aware of any inappropriate behaviour or rude comments. They seem to be committed to ruining the career of one of America's brightest talents. I will not let this blatant disinformation continue and will address everything in detail as soon as possible. I will not be silenced, and I will ensure that the truth prevails. Full video explanation soon."
[00:54:11.18] We're going to fully break down the 20-minute follow-up video eventually, but here's a teaser clip.
[00:54:16.82] [Hans Niemann] When they say highly inappropriate behaviour, I don't know what implication. They might hide behind this. I have no idea what they're talking about. This supposed highly inappropriate behaviour, including the rude comments, is completely news to me.
[00:54:28.10] Now, I will address, of course, the damage to private property. So this is something that's very important to address. So during a stay at the Chase Hotel at the US Championship, there was an incident, and after a very difficult tournament and difficult games, I damaged a few things in the hotel room. Now, the damage that was done was-- was-- I can give some details. There is an incident report. But the long story short is that I apologized. I paid a fine, and no damage-- you know, no one was harmed. It was simply some, you know, remotes and stuff were damaged, and some other things were damaged, as well. The details don't matter. Of course, I'm very apologetic for the damage done to the hotel room. And of course, it was a mistake and something that in the heat of the moment after a difficult chess game I sincerely apologize for. But the truth is, is that this reason for my damage to the hotel has absolutely nothing to do with why I've been blacklisted, because while they might say now and might invent this inappropriate behaviour, and use the hotel's damage-- another thing I should say about the hotel is that I was actually going to be unbanned by the hotel. The hotel-- I had reached out to the hotel. I had incessantly apologized. I paid a very large fine, very graciously.
[00:55:46.25] [Playful music plays]
[00:55:46.70] [Ryan] At least he paid his fines graciously, though. Classic Hans.
[00:55:51.29] [Jess] So, yeah, stay tuned for that full story.
[00:55:54.87] It does seem like Hans is trying to turn things around, though. Lately, his chess has been speaking for itself. He's been on a heater. His blitz rating on chess.com was number three in the world for a period of time, just under Hikaru and Magnus. And he recently won his first-ever Titled Tuesday.
[00:56:14.12] [Ryan] Not only did Hans beat Hikaru, but he also drew Magnus, both playing with an accuracy of over 99%. And if that's not memorable enough, this was also their first match-up post lawsuit. Here's what Hans had to say during their long-awaited rematch, where both players chose to play a well-known, theory-backed draw instead of just duking it out.
[00:56:40.43] [Feeling Good by Michael Buble plays]
[00:56:40.92] [Hans Niemann] Guys, this is a known theoretical draw. I'm playing normal chess. He forces a draw. This is-- I have had the same draw, you know, many times. So, guys, just so you know, if I was such a terrible chess player and I wasn't talented, top players wouldn't be so-- wouldn't be afraid of me.
[00:57:03.36] [Ryan] If you don't know who's singing that absolute banger in the background, it's Canadian pop star and drug enthusiast Michael Bublé.
[00:57:11.52] [Michael Bublé] My buddy told me this was just a microdose of mushrooms, and he was lying!
[00:57:17.36] [Mellow electronic music plays]
[00:57:17.70] [Jess] Despite this recent draw, it still feels like the feud between Hans and Magnus is always going to be there. Magnus promised in the resolution of the lawsuit that he'd play Hans in the future, but I'm not sure that I'd call this a game, since they both elected to draw.
[00:57:34.95] Most players are intimidated by Magnus. They fear getting paired against him because of the psychological effect he seems to have on most players. Take it from Magnus himself.
[00:57:45.78] [Magnus Carlsen] I think psychology plays a significant role, for sure. Personally, I know that people-- I mean, people play a little bit differently against me than they do against some others, maybe, like, a little more passively, a little more apprehensively at times, even if it's just-- even if it's subconscious. I think they-- yeah, definitely when I play, I try to use the sort of psychological advantages that I have, especially against players that I feel more likely to-- to sort of be bluffable. I try and, like, push them a bit harder. Other players, I might not.
[00:58:31.07] [Gloomy music plays]
[00:58:33.39] [Ryan] But the Magnus effect doesn't work on Hans. If anything, Hans thrives off of the potential of beating Magnus again. Hans wants to bruise Magnus' ego even more than he's already done, just as Magnus does to most of his opponents. Because at the end of the day, for both of these players, chess is their life.
[00:58:55.59] [Jess] But we've seen it before that chess can be a fickle mistress, especially when you've clawed your way to the top and see that there's not really any further for you to climb. We're not saying that Magnus and Hans are doomed to madness, but maybe there is something to be said in chess keeping mad people sane. You have to wonder what'll happen to them if there's no more chess left to play.
[00:59:23.30] [Music fades]
[00:59:24.73] [Mike Boyd] Magnus is a crazy guy. He does crazy stuff.
[00:59:27.17] [Gloomy music plays]
[00:59:27.56] [Ryan] So Magnus walking back his allegations at the Sinquefield Cup means that the only other explanation is paranoia.
[00:59:35.47] [Jess] But sometimes paranoia is warranted. The government really is watching you.
[00:59:42.91] [Ryan] Maybe all these accusations of online cheating are true.
[00:59:47.14] [Jess] It could be that you're being punished for trashing a hotel room, or maybe you have a target on your back because being scapegoated as a known cheater is a label that's hard to leave behind.
[00:59:59.11] [Ryan] And maybe tournament directors are just looking for a reason not to invite you because they think you're bad for business.
[01:00:06.43] [Jess] Only time will tell whether your suspicions were correct or if you were just being paranoid.
[01:00:16.72] [Bobby Fischer, synthesized voice with reverb] Everything, why, why?
[01:00:20.77] [Mellow electronic music plays]
[01:00:21.17] [Ryan] Next time on Rooked, JJ and Julia are back for our episode on misogyny in chess. They'll also be back in other episodes and bonus content, too, by the way. But we're saving our conversations on ADHD and narcissism in chess for the season finale. Should those topics have gone in this episode? Maybe. But it's our podcast, and we make the rules.
[01:00:45.18] [Jess] By the way, the next episode is going to be pretty heavy because-- I don't know if y'all know this-- but the chess world is pretty messed up. So, yeah, prepare yourself.
[01:00:56.66] [Ryan] Thank you to our King-level Patreon subscribers: Umaima Baig, Madelyn, Gord, and Mya Schmidt, Stefan Vezina, and the Colorado Avalanche Institute of New Zealand. I guess the Colorado Avalanche Foundation doesn't care about us anymore.
[01:01:11.31] [Jess] Also Thanks to our very first Pawn-level subscriber, Jeff Burrow. Normally, you don't get a shout-out at the end of the credits at the Pawn level, but we are just so tickled that we have a Pawn-level subscriber that we wanted to say thank you, Jeff. We appreciate your patronage.
[01:01:28.41] [Music fades]
[01:01:32.84] [Rooked outro plays]
[01:01:37.28] [Jess] Rooked: The Cheaters' Gambit is written and produced by me, Jess Schmidt.
[01:01:41.03] [Ryan] And by me, Ryan Webb.
[01:01:42.62] [Jess] Our amazing music is by the ever-talented Lorna Gilfedder.
[01:01:45.86] [Ryan] Our marketing is by media genius Bailey Simone Photography.
[01:01:49.52] [Jess] Our executive producers are Rooney and Indigo.
[01:01:52.43] [both] Speak!
[01:01:53.54] [Rooney and Indigo howling]
[01:01:56.57] [Jess] This podcast is recorded on the traditional Treaty 7 territory of the Blackfoot Confederacy, the land of the Siksika, the Kainai, the Piikani, as well as the Stoney Nakoda and Tsuut'ina Nations.
[01:02:07.64] [Ryan] We acknowledge that this territory is home to the Métis Nation of Alberta, Region 3 within the historical Northwest Métis homeland. In the spirit of respect, reciprocity, and truth, we honour and acknowledge all nations, Indigenous and non, who live, work, and play on this land and who honour and celebrate this territory.
[01:02:26.30] [Jess] This gathering place, and therefore this podcast, provides us with an opportunity to engage in and demonstrate reconciliation. The Government of Canada has not followed through on a number of the Calls to Action that have been suggested by the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada.
[01:02:41.87] [Ryan] One of the Calls to Action for the federal, provincial, and territorial governments, in consultation and collaboration with survivors, Aboriginal peoples, and educators, is to make age-appropriate curriculum on residential schools, treaties, and Aboriginal peoples' historical and contemporary contributions to Canada a mandatory education requirement for Kindergarten to Grade 12 students.
[01:03:04.50] When I was going to school in rural Alberta, Indigenous history was barely taught. Nobody really talked about Indigenous contributions, like how the Haudenosaunee Confederacy's Great Law of Peace influenced Democratic governing structures that continue to exist today. Or how Cree Chief and Lawyer Harold Cardinal was a leader in the movement against the 1969 White Paper, which sought to do away with Indian status and treaty rights. I didn't read Tomson Highway or Eden Robinson until I got to college, because no teachers until then encouraged me to seek them out.
[01:03:40.56] I sure hope things have improved since I was in school, because as Canadians, we need to know these things. We need to mandate that Indigenous history be taught at all levels of education so that we can crack racial biases and move towards living harmoniously together on these stolen Indigenous lands. Do better, Canada. [Music fades]

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