Episode 7: The Misogyny - Recent Controversies (Part 1)

[00:00:00.47] [Rooked theme music plays]
[00:00:05.70] [Emilia Castelao] I wouldn't say I was surprised when the news broke, mostly because, in the chess world, stuff like this tends to be an open secret. And when I went to my first chess tournament, sadly, like, those were the first things that I was told, is to watch out for these people and, you know, just make sure that you're staying safe. And so, for me, that was, like, really disheartening, just because chess is one of those games that, like, theoretically should be one of the safest sports. Like, there's no physical contact. It's all over the board. It's all mental. Like, it's one of those things that should be so equitable, and to have the first thing that I hear is, you know, be careful when you're with these specific people, it just-- the news didn't come as a shock to me.
[00:00:59.41] [Fiona Steil-Aontoni] I was shocked. I mean, as a girl or a woman in the chess world, I know there is a lot of very flirty guys out there. Of course, also a lot of flirty girls, but when you have almost 90% men, I think that's just how it works. But I didn't realize, you know, the proportions. And I think especially the Wall Street Journal piece, I was absolutely horrified. That was a very tough read.
[00:01:37.34] [Lile Koridze] Ugh, there are so many cases. One case, there will be another case, there will be also another case, because some people can't really learn the lesson, you know, from other people that they should not do, that it's a crime. It's horrible. It's a really, really, really bad thing to do to anyone. Like, why a normal person would assault someone? Why would even make some sexual uncomfortable jokes or whatever? But some people-- like, because the thing is that they don't get enough punished. So if they were getting enough punished, then no one would do that.
[00:02:08.26] But, actually, what I noticed that when I play later in the tournaments, for me, at least, it's not as much they try to do something, because I think they know that I'm going to get to my Twitter and write. I'm going to, like, publish what has happened. So I feel like, nowadays, it's really less this than it was before. So now I understand, as well, that why they could not speak before, because it was not as common. It was not as, like, possible to cancel them on Twitter.
[00:02:44.91] [Ryan] We've been talking about this episode for months now. And we appreciate your patience in waiting for us to get it right.
[00:02:52.88] [Jess] In reality, this episode has actually been in the making since the very beginnings of the sport. But it's also about the changes that have begun to unfurl in the last decade, coming to a head in the last couple of years.
[00:03:07.44] [Ryan] This is a story about chess, but it's also a story about society, about the place of women in the patriarchy. It's about the embedded values that continue to push women down as they fight to be seen and considered as equals in a male-dominated world. And that's a big topic. So this is just part one of this episode, with an equally wordily titled part two still to come.
[00:03:35.79] [Jess] Because this is a tale of chess and a tale of inequality and bad actors.
[00:03:42.54] [Ryan] This is a tale of misogyny, sexism, and abuse.
[00:03:49.37] [Jess] This is a tale of cheating, of lies and conspiracies.
[00:03:56.61] [both] This is Rooked: The Cheaters' Gambit.
[00:04:00.63] [Music fades]
[00:04:03.52] [Gloomy music plays]
[00:04:07.37] [Jess] I'm Jess Schmidt. I'm a woman and a podcaster. I'm also a capital F feminist, because I support equality and women's rights.
[00:04:16.52] [Ryan] I'm Ryan Webb. I'm a chess player and first-time podcaster. I almost minored in women's lit in university, so I just missed the boat on being able to call myself an accredited feminist. I like to think, at the very least, that I'm an ally. Whatever terminology you want to put on it, at the end of the day, I also think women should be equal in society and in the game of chess.
[00:04:43.29] [Jess] For this episode and the upcoming part two, we're going to try and get out of the way as much as possible, because one of the biggest problems in this story is that even though women are at the heart of it, you don't always get to hear what they think in their own words. So we're putting our own narrative aside as much as we can so we can let these women speak for themselves.
[00:05:05.97] [Ryan] For this episode, we're bringing back a familiar voice and introducing you to new ones, too. You might have recognized the first voice at the top of this episode. But if you didn't, it's Emilia Castelao.
[00:05:19.44] [Emilia Castelao] My name is Emilia Castelao, and I am currently the President of the Women in Chess Foundation. I am also a Master's student at Diplomatic Academy studying chess history.
[00:05:29.37] [Jess] Emilia has served as our resident chess historian in previous episodes, but since the last time we spoke, she's also started the Women in Chess Foundation, so we knew we had to re-interview her for this set of episodes. We'll hear more from her in part two, but for now, here's a sneak peek. And an ad roll!
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[00:05:49.62] [Emilia Castelao] This podcast is listened to by Emilia, the Women in Chess Foundation President. The Women in Chess Foundation's mission essentially is to empower women and also make chess safer for everyone. We are working right now on two big projects. The first one is advocacy training. So we are training people in the chess world, from arbiters to moms of kids who play chess, on how to help women or anyone who has experienced misconduct in the chess world. As well, we have been working with a bunch of chess federations on changing safe play guidelines and making them not only more inclusive, but also just more preventative, and having actual things in place for people who want to report misconduct.
[00:06:38.83] You can support us by going to our website womeninchess.com and becoming an advocate. We have advocacy trainings at least once a month. If advocacy training is not your style, then donating to the Women in Chess Foundation is always really great. All of the proceeds that we get go directly back into Women in Chess in helping put advocates at tournaments or supporting, you know, upcoming young girls in chess. We have a lot of lofty goals that we're trying to accomplish, so any penny helps.
[00:07:12.92] Anyone should become an advocate. We really want there to be a wide range of people who are advocates, whether it's moms taking their kids to chess tournaments or if you're just a local club player who goes to, you know, weekly chess meetings.
[00:07:31.50] [Cheerful music plays]
[00:07:31.92] Advocacy is for everyone. There's really space for everyone in our advocacy program, and even if you're a man, we welcome you, you know? It's really important to have a full spectrum of representation in our advocates program. Follow Women in Chess at Women in Chess on Twitter and Instagram.
[00:07:51.76] [Music fades]
[00:07:52.52] And LinkedIn.
[00:07:53.99] [Emilia laughs]
[00:07:54.96] [Comical slide whistle plays]
[00:07:56.89] [Playful music plays]
[00:07:57.38] [Ryan] Again, we're going to talk more about Women in Chess next episode. But it's a great initiative, and you should definitely give your support in any way possible before then.
[00:08:07.49] [Jess] As for the new voices, gracing the Rooked podcast for the first time...
[00:08:13.17] [Fiona Steil-Antoni] My name is Fiona Steil-Antoni. My chess title is a Woman International Master, but I hope you're not going to call me, you know, Woman IM Fiona. And I'm calling from home. I'm home in Luxembourg.
[00:08:26.87] I've been a Woman IM since 2010, and my rating has dropped a bit. It's now around 2150. I started playing chess when I was nine. I was very active and my teenage years and early 20s, but now my career has sort of taken a different direction, and I've been working in the chess world for the last 10 years.
[00:08:50.63] Like so many other people, I started with my dad. So my dad himself only started playing chess quite late, when he was 40 or so. He was just very passionate about it. He's not super strong or anything, but he would always play chess at home, either analyzing by himself with a book, or a friend would come over and they would play. And I just got curious, because I kept seeing that board and, like, what are they doing? What's going on? So I went up to my dad, and I asked him, "What is this? Can you teach me?" And the rest is history, pretty much.
[00:09:27.87] [Ryan] You also heard the voice of chess player and streamer Lile Koridze at the top of the episode. Again, you'll hear more from Lile in part two. As a young player in the sport, she's got some really interesting takes on the future of the game and what needs to be done in the present to make the game safer and more equitable.
[00:09:45.90] [Lile Koridze] I am Lile Koridze from Georgia. I'm 22 years old, and I am a Woman FIDE Master. I have been playing chess for around 14 years, and I started playing it when I was at school around first or second grade. So since that, I became a chess player. My rating will be around 2120. My maximum rating, classical, was 2191. I am working towards to hit my first goal, which is 2200.
[00:10:20.22] So as I am a classical chess player, competitive chess player, and at the same time a streamer, it's pretty hard to balance everything. Probably on stream I'm usually, like, three to four hours. In studying chess it's, like, around three hours, at least two, three hours-- as much as I really can, because it's pretty hard to balance everything. But I make sure that I study enough chess every day.
[00:10:47.61] [Mellow electronic music plays]
[00:10:47.94] [Jess] Before we dive in any further we just need to acknowledge the fact that, again, we're interlopers in this sport. Our knowledge of most of the game is second hand. We're getting it from research and talking to the players and experts whose lives and livelihoods are based on their participation in this game.
[00:11:08.07] [Ryan] So before we delve into the recent sexist controversies that have troubled the chess community, we wanted to know from these women chess players, are sexism and misogyny actually big problems in chess? Here's Fiona's response.
[00:11:23.26] [Fiona Steil-Antoni] I think it's such a difficult question. Is sexism, you know, is it a systemic issue? The answer is probably yes, but it's not just in the chess world. It's in the world at large. In a field that's more or less 90% men, I guess it's bound to be unfortunately a bigger issue maybe than in society.
[00:11:49.59] It's sad for me as a woman in chess. Like, I am struggling to wrap my head around why are we not as good? But it's a fact. I mean, even the percentage of women that do play, roughly 10%, there is not one single woman in the top 100, and so it's hard to deny these facts.
[00:12:13.62] [Jess] And here's Lile's opinion.
[00:12:16.23] [Lile Koridze] It's hard to deny that there is no fact of sexism in chess. For example, when I play open tournaments there's, like, 100 male chess players, maybe a few women players. So that's the biggest issue in chess. You know, if there was balance of chess players, women and male players, there would be women who would support each other, and now it's really hard to, like, play as a woman, because it's also hard to socialize in a way that we are unused to. There are so many men and most of them want to, like, take you out to date or just have some private time with you. It's really hard to look at them as, like, friends and look at them as like I can look to another woman, you know? That's a problem.
[00:12:59.22] I would not say that I experienced something, like, big or something traumatic. Fortunately not. But I have seen other people's examples. Besides the fact that many times if you are a woman chess player and if you beat guys, sometimes they just feel like their ego is destroyed or something because you beat them and you are a girl. Well, that's how it works. And I hope that eventually there will be enough women chess players who will compete in open chess tournaments, and there will be balanced kind of men and women players.
[00:13:33.33] [Ryan] And here's Emilia's take.
[00:13:35.34] [Emilia Castelao] A lot of I think what happened is an open secret just because the chess world is so small, but also at the same time, we were like, why is no one doing anything about this? It's truly just, like, enraging. We're just like, let's do something about it. Like, let's just rock the chess world on its head and, you know, start something that's just for women to make sure that they have a space where they can go to and, you know, come to us with their problems, and we can help them find a solution, because we know the chess world and we know how to navigate it. And so, we can help them.
[00:14:10.36] [Mellow electronic music plays]
[00:14:10.84] [Jess] In most facets of life, there's at least some level of sexism. But in chess in particular, it's highly concentrated because of the ratio of men to women participants. Men don't have an advantage in chess the way they might have in other sports because chess is a predominantly mental game. But despite that, women as a minority are disadvantaged.
[00:14:35.86] [Ryan] According to chess Grandmaster and economist, David Smerdon, women represent 11% of all classical FIDE-rated players and just 16% of the FIDE Master list. Only 2% of Grandmasters are women, and of the top classical rated adult players at the time of this recording, the highest-rated woman in the world, Hou Yifan, is ranked at number 115. There's a number of reasons women are not represented in the top 100 players, which we'll talk more about later, but most of it boils down to low participation.
[00:15:11.29] [Jess] The numbers and the lived experiences of women in chess create a pretty big performance gap, and in part thanks to that gap, sexism is alive and well. If you don't believe us from these stats and the quotes from women chess players that you've already heard, buckle up. We have some pretty terrible stories to delve into.
[00:15:33.79] [Ryan] Something else important to note is that this set of episodes is a step sideways from the Sinquefield Cup anal beads scandal. We're taking you into darker and perhaps even more pervasive issues in chess than cheating. We're going to be discussing accounts of mistreatment of women-- from harassment to physical and sexual abuse-- in this episode and the next. So please take care.
[00:15:58.29] [Piano music plays]
[00:15:58.78] [Jess] One silver lining-- if you want to call it that-- from the anal beads scandal is that it made us pay more attention to bad behaviour in chess on the whole.
[00:16:10.01] [Ryan, chuckling] "On the hole."
[00:16:11.26] [Jess] Okay, get it out of your system now, Ryan, because I doubt there's going to be many chuckles for the rest of the episode. Are you good?
[00:16:17.89] [Ryan] Yeah, I'm good. You got to take the levity where you can get it, you know?
[00:16:20.86] [Jess] Yeah, I mean, you're right, but this is pretty serious.
[00:16:25.06] [Sinister synth music plays]
[00:16:25.64] There was at least one verified bad actor on the main stage during the Saint Louis Chess Club 2022 coverage of the Sinquefield Cup. His name is Alejandro Ramirez.
[00:16:38.01] [Ryan] The reactions you heard at the top of this episode were our guests responding to the question, "Were you surprised when you heard about the sexual assault allegations that have been levelled at Alejandro Ramirez?" And the resounding answer from Emilia, Fiona, and Lile: yes... and no.
[00:16:58.19] [Fiona Steil-Antoni] Yes, because I know Alejandro. I wouldn't say that we were ever close friends, but I would probably say we were friends. But, yeah, I was-- I was shocked.
[00:17:11.51] [Lile sighs]
[00:17:12.21] [Lile Koridze] There are so many cases. One case, there will be another case, there will be also another case.
[00:17:17.22] [Emilia Castelao] In the chess world, stuff like this tends to be an open secret.
[00:17:20.85] ["secret" reverberating]
[00:17:21.73] [Sinister synth music plays]
[00:17:22.22] [Jess] To tell this story properly, we need to go back to the beginning and introduce you to some new players. The two people at the heart of this scandal are Woman Grandmaster Jennifer Shahade, the accuser, and Grandmaster Alejandro Ramirez, the accused. If you're not already aware, both of these players are very well known in the chess community. Jen Shahade is a two-time US Women's Chess Champion, renowned poker player, author, commentator, and women's rights advocate in the chess community. She served as Women's Program Director for US Chess from 2018 to 2023. Her accomplishments on and off the chess board are remarkable, and she's been a dominant figure in the chess scene for decades-- with one of her main goals being equity and equality for women and girls in chess. We weren't able to speak to Jen for this episode, but here's a clip from an interview she did with chess.com in 2023.
[00:18:22.53] [Jennifer Shahade] Hey, it's Jennifer Shahade.
[00:18:24.47] [Groovy music plays]
[00:18:24.85] Wow, when I was a kid, I learned chess from my father and my brother. I'm from a big chess family. My brother is an International Master, the founder of the Pro Chess League, and my dad's a FIDE Master and a multi-state champion.
[00:18:40.91] [Music fades]
[00:18:42.55] Well, the recently published Wall Street Journal article really brought to light some extremely disturbing, heartbreaking, infuriating things that have been going on in the chess world for too long. And I think the message I really want to send to people is that, you know, men, the adults, have to do better to create a better culture. Because there were so many accounts that I have heard that were mentioned in the article where people, very young at the time would say, like, "Well, you know, everybody else around me acted like it was normal, so I didn't say anything. I didn't do anything. It just was very normalized." And, yeah, that just needs to stop, and we need to step up and make sure that our game is, like, safe and fun for everyone.
[00:19:32.72] [Sinister synth music plays]
[00:19:34.33] [Ryan] Alejandro Ramirez is a Costa Rican-American Grandmaster, commentator, and coach, who was once the second-youngest GM in the world. He's not a commentator or a coach anymore, though, and it's because of these allegations.
[00:19:48.37] [Jess] Before this story broke, Jen and Alejandro had been working together for years at the Saint Louis Chess Club, often commentating on the same tournaments. You'll remember Saint Louis Chess Club as the host of the 2022 Sinquefield Cup where the Hans-Magnus scandal all began. You might not recall, though, that Alejandro was the main interviewer of Hans during the tournament. That might be because of us. We've done our best here on this podcast to scrub Alejandro's name and voice from any of our content. But for this episode, we do need to speak his name in order to discuss the horrendous allegations against him. It's important for all the women involved in this particular story, but also for women in general, to have the ability to say the names of those who harass and assault them, in order to hold them accountable, and to make them an example to others who might also try to get away with this kind of behaviour.
[00:20:46.85] [Ryan] But we're jumping around a bit. And just like we said in episode one, we're not here to give you our opinions. We're here to tell you the facts. And the facts are this: on February 15th, 2023-- five months after the anal beads scandal-- Jennifer Shahade accused Alejandro Ramirez of multiple accounts of sexual assault. Her Twitter post, titled Time's Up, reads, quote, "Currently, there are multiple investigations underway on Alejandro Ramirez and sexual misconduct, including a series of alleged incidents involving a minor. I was assaulted by him twice-- 9 and 10 years ago. I'd moved on until the past couple of years when multiple women, independent of each other and with no knowledge of my own experience, approached me with their stories of alleged abuse. These accounts were from much younger alleged victims. I saw alarming evidence, including texts that admitted abuse of a minor while he was coaching her, as well as a text to an alleged victim about being an underage 'temptress.' The road to investigation and potential consequences has been a very stressful process. You may have noticed I've taken a major step back from commentary as this plays out. I've filled the time with poker, writing and prompting girls in chess, and yet a lot of that work to make chess more inclusive is futile if we cannot make crystal clear that the safety of women, girls, children is of the highest priority. And that's why I'm speaking out now. Thanks for your support and patience for more details," end quote.
[00:22:22.07] [Sinister synth music plays]
[00:22:22.55] [Jess] In the days following this post, Jen revealed on Twitter that seven additional women had come to her with further allegations of abuse and assault against Alejandro. People from within the chess world and even some others from outside of it had also come to Jen's defence on Twitter, offering their support and condolences, and with some even leaving comments about their own bad experiences with Alejandro. According to Misha Vilenchuk, a former u-18 US Chess Champion, Alejandro's disrespectful and even predatory behaviour had been going on for decades. Misha tweeted that Alejandro was, quote, "grabbing underage girls and DMing them at chess camps," end quote.
[00:23:05.48] [Ryan] And as it would turn out, this first community uprising was only the beginning of the revelations that were to come. Remember, this is February 2023. Jen first reported her allegations in the fall of 2020 and then again in 2022-- the same time that Alejandro was commentating and leading interviews for the Saint Louis Chess Club during the Sinquefield Cup. At the time, Alejandro Ramirez was the highest-paid employee of the club. US Chess and the Saint Louis Chess Club were aware of these allegations for years and seemingly nothing was done.
[00:23:43.35] [Jess] Fast forward a few weeks from the time of Jen's first tweet to March 7th, 2023. The Wall Street Journal releases a detailed article exposing Alejandro for his predatory behaviour. We're not really here to get into all of the frankly disgusting and shocking details, but suffice it to say that the WSJ article lays out all the alleged counts of unwanted physical aggression, force, harassment, and misconduct.
[00:24:12.60] [Ryan] Eight women interviewed by WSJ say Alejandro used his position of power to make unwanted advances on them. The allegations date back over a decade, some of which come from anonymous women who were underage at the time and say he plied them with alcohol. There's accusations of rape and unwanted sexual touching by some women he was coaching at the time. Again, the WSJ article is a difficult read, but if you want to know more, we've linked it in the show notes.
[00:24:44.22] [Jess] According to the article, a lawyer for the Saint Louis Chess Club wrote in a 2021 letter that the club was aware of Jen's allegations as early as 2020. In 2021, the Saint Louis Chess Club and US Chess were again notified of the accusations against Alejandro, including the abuse of a 15-year-old. Jennifer herself even tweeted on July 12th, 2023 that she, quote, "notified the org at least four times of Alejandro's alleged abuse of girls/women, including of me plus a 15-year-old before he was paid to coach the Olympic women's team," end quote.
[00:25:22.91] [Sinister synth music plays]
[00:25:23.19] Even with these allegations being documented several times over, Alejandro was still given the job of coach for the US Women's team at the World Chess Olympiad in Chennai, India in 2022.
[00:25:36.45] [Ryan] The WSJ article also details an instance in 2016 where a woman who was underage at the time was warned by officials at the Saint Louis Chess Club to not be alone with Alejandro after a party. In another instance in 2017, a player's mother alerted a top US chess official of Alejandro's behaviour and reported that she heard top executives for the Saint Louis Chess Club joking about Alejandro's interest in underage women. It was seemingly just an open secret that Alejandro Ramirez was a predator with a penchant for young women, and the US Chess Federation and Saint Louis Chess Club continued to uphold him as a dominant figure in chess in spite of these "shortcomings". These governing bodies gave him power over and direct access to so many women, and when they were informed that Alejandro was abusing this power, they swept it under the rug and refused to take action.
[00:26:39.10] [Jess] Actually, they did do something. They gave him a shitload of money, and coaching gigs, and a spotlight. They promoted him as the top commentator representing their brands. Ultimately, US Chess and the Saint Louis Chess Club failed in their duty to protect the players that participate in their events by continuing to employ Alejandro despite the risk and warning signs that he does not respect or value women.
[00:27:06.96] [Ryan] So what about Alejandro? After Jen's allegations, he wrote a letter to the Saint Louis Chess Club. It reads, quote, "It is clear the investigations into allegations of inappropriate behaviour have proven to be a negative distraction for the club. My cooperation with investigative efforts notwithstanding, I must acknowledge my continued affiliation with the club is not presently in the best interests of the club. With this in mind, I hereby resign my affiliation in all respects with the Saint Louis Chess Club. I sincerely wish the club all the best as it moves forward," end quote.
[00:27:44.12] [Sinister synth music plays]
[00:27:44.39] [Jess] Following Alejandro's letter, the Saint Louis Chess Club put out the following statement. Quote, "Mr Ramirez resigned his affiliation with the Saint Louis Chess Club in all respects on March 6th, 2023. The Saint Louis Chess Club accepted his resignation on March 6th, 2023. This action effectively ends his role as a coach for the chess team at Saint Louis University. The Saint Louis Chess Club has no further comment regarding this employment matter," end quote.
[00:28:14.34] [Ryan] Besides this last statement, US Chess and the Saint Louis Chess Club had remained pretty tight-lipped around Jen's allegations and the onslaught of accusations compiled in the WSJ article. This silence prompted Jen to tweet out the following on September 5th, 2023. Quote, "I have left US Chess and will no longer serve as Director of US Chess Women, a program I started four years ago. Resignation letter on why I cannot in good conscience lend my credibility to the org anymore," end quote.
[00:28:47.37] [Jess] The linked resignation letter reads in part, quote, "Sadly, I leave with heavy concerns. After I went public in February with a viral tweet about being assaulted by a prominent Grandmaster, things escalated quickly. More women came forward to me, and a Wall Street Journal article, How Allegations Against a US Grandmaster Went Unaddressed for Years, dropped on International Women's Day. You can read a particularly detailed account of the timeline and institutional failures in Lichess' Breaking the Silence as well as a subsequent WSJ piece on the fallout. One of the most alarming facts that came out was that US Chess sent Alejandro as a coach at the Women's Olympiad, an event that includes over 100 minors, despite my repeated warnings in addition to warnings from others that he allegedly abused a 15-year-old and that he had also attacked me."
[00:29:41.19] "With the truth out, I was hopeful-- perhaps naively so-- that I could help reset the pieces and forge a better future within US Chess, especially for our girls and children. Instead of support, I was greeted with hostility. My tweet, the one that had finally instigated consequences, was criticized by US Chess. A lawyer representing the organization told me to be mindful that speaking up could violate policy and jeopardize US Chess' process."
[00:30:12.03] "From the women's Olympiad coach selection to the day I resigned, my advice and accomplishments were consistently minimized or ignored. Based on what I've seen, I cannot currently lend my credibility to the organization in good conscience. This is especially true since I've become a de facto confidante for so many women and girls, making it essential for me to have faith in executive decision making and communication."
[00:30:37.98] "Those familiar with institutional betrayal and whistleblowing won't find any of this surprising. As painful as it was, I am confident the insights I gained will help me in my advocacy and work. I wish the best for US Chess in making the necessary changes in the future, and to whoever takes over US Chess Women, know that my door is always open to chat. My deepest admiration goes to the Jane Does who stepped up and broke the silence, to make the game safer for the next generation. To any survivors reading this post, whether you've spoken up or not, know that to me, you are the important one. In truth, Jennifer Shahade," end quote.
[00:31:18.35] [Sinister synth music plays]
[00:31:18.66] [Ryan] Around this time, Jen took part in the March 2023 The Experiences of Women in Chess Roundtable with chess.com. We'll be linking this video in the show notes as it's really worth a watch, but here's a clip from it featuring Jen.
[00:31:33.09] [Jennifer Shahade] In recent weeks, I've-- I've come forward with some really disturbing allegations about, you know, some bad experiences I had in the chess world, and as a result of this, I've been hearing from girls and women from all over the world about, you know, really terrible things that they have experienced in chess-- abuse, assault. And it's-- it's really like a gut punch, because I knew, of course-- I've known that this has existed. You know, it's happened to me. I've seen it, I've heard about it, but in recent weeks, I'm hearing so much more. And it's devastating. And I think it just goes to the point when people ask why girls drop out of chess. We have a very obvious answer-- that a lot of them drop out because they don't have the support structure of friends, family, school, that will support them not only as players but as human beings. And now I always knew that, but now I know it much more. And so, as a community, I think we have to figure out how to make the space-- how to make the space safer for girls and women, and for kids, as well.
[00:32:52.17] Sadly, I have crossed paths with this horrific story of abuse in chess, from the other side, as well, as a classmate of some boys that also experienced abuse. So it's not just girls. It's also boys. And I think that there's many things that we can do as a community. I know that different organizations are implementing, like, codes of conduct, safe play policies. It goes back to tolerance of negative comments, of sexualizing people who are underage. All of this just needs to be really nipped in the bud. And so, I'm glad that we're having the conversation, even though I'm also really heartbroken by the stories that I'm hearing about.
[00:33:41.17] [Sinister synth music plays]
[00:33:41.59] [Jess] On May 24th, 2023, US Chess would break their silence with a statement titled US Chess Final Statement about Alejandro Ramirez Investigation. In it, they voted to ratify the resignation of Alejandro and ban him permanently from US Chess membership. They list a handful of steps that they are committed to taking in order to build a safer and more welcoming environment, including but not limited to, "adopting a training and education program around safe play, required for tournament director certification at various levels; development of event communications outlining the safe play guidelines and Code of Ethics, specifically identifying prohibited conduct and appointing a contact person for complaints and concerns which will be specific to each event; and providing resources for minors regarding behavioural expectations, as well as a review of current background screening policies to determine whether and what restrictions to impose on prospective or existing coaches and tournament staff with a record of, for example, crimes involving minors, sexual assaults, and similar offences."
[00:34:52.78] [Sinister synth music plays]
[00:34:53.19] Seems like these things should have already been thought of and had rules about them.
[00:34:58.71] [Ryan] So that's US Chess. What about the Saint Louis Chess Club? Well, on October 2nd, 2023-- a whopping 229 days after Jen tweeted her accusations of sexual misconduct and harassment by Alejandro-- the Saint Louis Chess Club broke their silence with a statement titled An Important Message from the Board of Directors. In it, they admit that they should have done more to look into the allegations and, ultimately, that they had failed. They say they are, quote, "deeply troubled by the allegations and accounts of misconduct," end quote. Here's an excerpt from the statement/apology.
[00:35:36.92] Quote, "Our greatest concern is for those who were assaulted or harassed by Mr Ramirez, and we are deeply sorry for the pain it caused. We also realize the Saint Louis Chess Club should have done more to address the allegations made by those who bravely came forward with information about his inexcusable behaviour. Following an investigation by our organization, during which time Mr Ramirez resigned, it was determined he would no longer be allowed on the Saint Louis Chess Club campus or be allowed to participate at any chess-related activities the Saint Louis Chess Club hosts, supports, or is affiliated with in any capacity. We also stand behind the decision by US Chess to suspend Mr Ramirez. Sadly, these incidents point to a larger issue in the global chess community that must be acknowledged and addressed-- the undercurrent of bias and discrimination against female players, which leads to a culture of sexism and harassment."
[00:36:34.61] "As one of the most powerful and influential organizations in chess, we need to take responsibility and recognize we risk remaining part of this cultural problem unless we take a leadership role in working toward a solution. We were silent on this very real and important issue for too long, and in doing so, we let down those whom we champion-- our students, players, donors, and friends. Our failure to use our influence to publicly step up and fiercely advocate for keeping chess safe is a mistake that will not be repeated," end quote.
[00:37:11.68] [Sinister synth music plays]
[00:37:12.29] [Jess] Like US Chess, the Saint Louis Chess Club also had some bullet points as to what they're going to do better in the future. If you want to read them, they're included in the show notes for this episode, but for the most part, again, it seems like policies they should have already had in place.
[00:37:29.45] [Music fades]
[00:37:29.75] Better late than never isn't really something you want to say when it comes to protecting women and girls from predators in one of the most well-followed sports in the world.
[00:37:40.35] [Gloomy music plays]
[00:37:40.81] [Ryan] So, where are we now, over a year after Jen's infamous tweet? I think it's only fair that we let her sum it up. On February 13th, 2024, she wrote the following on her Substack. Quote, "It's been a year since I tweeted about being assaulted by Alejandro Ramirez. The post went viral and changed my life. Within 48 hours, several other women alleged to me that they'd also experienced abuse or harassment by Ramirez. Thanks to a bombshell WSJ article and eight brave women, including three who were under 18 at the time of the alleged abuse, my concerns were corroborated. Alejandro resigned from the Saint Louis Chess Club, Saint Louis University, and US Chess after receiving a list of questions from the Journal."
[00:38:27.60] "The change went beyond one person. More women are speaking out about abuse and violence in chess, from WIM Sabrina Chevannes, to a group of French chess players led by WIM Yosha Iglesias. They wrote an open letter signed by over 100 women, including GM Susan Polgar. Lichess posted an in-depth piece Breaking the Silence, leading to another Grandmaster facing consequences. The Women in Chess Foundation was founded, and federations across the world, including France and Norway, announced or strengthened policies against abuse and harassment. The Saint Louis Chess Club apologized for not acting sooner and announced a slate of new policies. A New Jersey chess team wrote about the need for leadership change. Dozens of women, and men, too, came to confide in me about abuse or harassment they experienced in chess, and many took action," end quote.
[00:39:22.12] [Gloomy music plays]
[00:39:22.45] [Jess] Jen's tweet was the catalyst for all of these events. It opened the door for people to come forward, to speak up about the abuse that they've suffered at the hands of others in the chess world. It prompted over a hundred players to sign the open letter Jen mentions that was spearheaded by French chess players denouncing sexism. Titled We Women Chess Players, the letter reads, quote, "We women chess players, coaches, arbiters, and managers have experienced sexist or sexual violence perpetrated by chess players, coaches, arbiters, or managers. We are convinced that this harassment and these assaults are still one of the main reasons why women and young girls, especially in their teens, stop playing chess. Faced with these acts of violence, we have remained silent for too long. However, staying silent means carrying the burden of shame alone. Finding the words and the courage to speak up may take time, but we believe it is necessary and healing."
[00:40:25.39] "Today, we are speaking out and encouraging all female players to denounce the violence they have suffered, so that fear and guilt change sides, so that perpetrators can no longer act with impunity, so that the support of players, coaches, arbiters, managers, and parents are aware of the extent of the problem and can be part of the solution. Your vigilance, support, and firmness are essential. To anyone who has experienced sexist or sexual violence, we want to say, you are not alone. We believe you. We will be there for you," end quote.
[00:41:03.16] [Ryan] We've linked the letter in the show notes if you're a woman in the chess world listening to this who's experienced sexist or sexual violence yourself. The letter is still open for signatures if you want to add your name to the list.
[00:41:16.59] [Sombre electronic music plays]
[00:41:23.93] [Jess] The chess world has come a long way in a year, but there's still so much left to accomplish. It should be noted that this is not by any means a comprehensive timeline of everything that's taken place following Jen Shahade's emotional and powerful tweet on February 15th, 2023. This story is more intricate and nuanced than what we've outlined, but we just don't have time to lay out all the details.
[00:41:50.60] [Ryan] Jess and I have floated the idea of producing a second season of Rooked to really explore misogyny and sexism in chess. So if you like that idea, let us know. If you as a listener have any resources or stories of your own that you think need to be shared, please reach out to us at [email protected] or on our socials. We think that this is such an important issue to unpack, and we'd like to do so with as many voices as possible.
[00:42:22.15] [Music fades]
[00:42:26.10] [Comical slide whistle plays]
[00:42:28.56] [Upbeat, playful music plays]
[00:42:29.07] [Ryan] Did you know that Rooked: The Cheaters' Gambit is an indie podcast?
[00:42:33.21] [Jess] Indie as in independent. We don't receive any sponsorship support. Ryan and I make Rooked in our spare time for free.
[00:42:40.53] [Ryan] And don't get us wrong. We love getting to make this podcast exactly the way we want to. But we've been thinking that, maybe with some support, we could make this show even better.
[00:42:50.58] [Tim Robinson] I got to figure out how to make money on this thing. It's simply too good.
[00:42:54.45] [Jess] So, like many creators, we've joined Patreon.
[00:42:57.81] [Ryan] Can I just ask, what is Patreon?
[00:43:00.54] [Jess] Great question, Ryan. Patreon is a way for fans to join and engage with their favourite creators' community. Basically, it's a platform that allows you to support creators financially. Currently, we have two tiers open: the Pawn level, if you want to support us for 5 Canadian dollars a month-- cheaper than mailing us an envelope of loonies and toonies-- and the King level, for $20 per month. If you choose to support us at the King tier, we'll also mention you by name in the episode credits. And if you support us at any level on Patreon, you'll also be able to access bonus content.
[00:43:34.15] [Ryan] Patreon looks like they stole their logo directly from Target.
[00:43:37.81] [Jess] You are the only person I've ever had to describe Patreon to, so I don't really trust your judgement here, honestly.
[00:43:44.49] [Upbeat, playful music plays] But that's a good point. If you want to support us but monthly donations don't fit your budget, you can also buy us a coffee instead at buymeacoffee.com/rooked. Or we also really appreciate ratings, reviews, and shares, too. And those are free.
[00:43:59.71] [Ryan] We love making this podcast, and our motivation is listeners like you. So we really appreciate your support at any level.
[00:44:07.66] [Jess] Go to patreon.com/rooked to support the podcast. That's patreon.com/rooked. Thanks for listening.
[00:44:16.74] [Music fades]
[00:44:17.68] [Comical slide whistle plays]
[00:44:20.49] [Sinister music plays]
[00:44:21.43] [Jess] I think we've told this story pretty well at the most basic level. And in spite of us both having a lot of feelings about it, we've stayed to the facts, because, unfortunately, even with all this evidence, there's still people who don't think sexism and misogyny are big issues in chess. There's people who are still denying wrongdoing without legal charges to back these allegations up. The sad reality is that crimes around sexual misconduct, harassment, and abuse often don't leave behind physical evidence. And it can really come down to he said, she said. But the majority of assault and harassment incidents never get reported at all, and of the abuse that does get reported, false reports are thought to be somewhere between 2% and 10% of all reports. So, again, if you're not moved by the women making these reports and what their lived experience is, at the very least, you've got to believe the math that they're telling the truth.
[00:45:27.36] [Music fades]
[00:45:30.09] [Melodic saxophone music plays]
[00:45:31.00] [Ryan] Which brings us to our next controversy. Here's GM Ilya Smirin commentating on a women's event in September 2022, just after the Sinquefield Cup scandal. This clip was posted to Twitter by Woman Grandmaster Gulrukhbegim Tokhirjonova-- sorry if I butchered your name-- as a screengrab from the live broadcast of round-nine commentary.
[00:45:56.09] [Fiona Steil-Antoni] Is a GM norm possible for Zhu in this event?
[00:46:00.69] [Ilya Smirin] She is not GM, Grandmaster?
[00:46:02.36] [Fiona Steil-Antoni] No, she's actually not even International Master. I believe she is--
[00:46:05.06] [Ilya Smirin] I mean, she's Woman Grandmaster or what?
[00:46:06.48] [Fiona Steil-Antoni] She's Woman Grandmaster, yeah.
[00:46:08.12] [Ilya Smirin] Why she wants to be like man Grandmaster in this case?
[00:46:11.99] [He chuckles]
[00:46:12.92] [Fiona Steil-Antoni] So to answer the question, it must be possible, Yeayeah? I guess there are enough-- what do they need, three Grandmaster opponents, right?
[00:46:19.79] [Ilya Smirin] Well, it's possible basically to make a man norm in a woman tournament?
[00:46:25.52] [Fiona Steil-Antoni] Of course. Why not?
[00:46:27.26] [Ilya Smirin] I don't know.
[00:46:28.32] [Fiona Steil-Antoni] I mean--
[00:46:28.74] [Ilya Smirin] For instance-- for instance, why not? Why women can play with men and men cannot play with women? It's also why not?
[00:46:34.79] [He laughs]
[00:46:35.09] [Fiona Steil-Antoni] A question for another day. Yeah?
[00:46:39.14] [Ilya Smirin] It would be like, you know, today everyone for parity.
[00:46:43.55] [Fiona Steil-Antoni] Well...
[00:46:46.45] But you cannot-- I mean, you are saying, you know, chess is maybe not-- not for women? Then you have to pick either. It's the same.
[00:46:52.96] [Ilya Smirin] I did not say it openly. I didn't say it openly. Sorry, in private. In private conversation.
[00:46:57.46] [Fiona Steil-Antoni] I thought you said it and-- I mean, okay, you said that Goryachkina is playing like a man, yeah? It's also not--
[00:47:03.37] [Ilya Smirin] Yeah, that's true. So Goryachkina, she played in Soviet Union, in Russia, sorry, Superfinal. Small minus she made, but it was very strong tournament.
[00:47:13.33] [Fiona Steil-Antoni] Yeah, but that doesn't--
[00:47:13.90] [Ilya Smirin] And she also had, like, 2600 plus recently rating.
[00:47:17.74] [Fiona Steil-Antoni] Yeah, but what does that have to do with playing like a man? Only men can play well?
[00:47:21.45] [Ilya Smirin] No, no, but she is playing in style, like positional style, like very strong end game, so it's-- But okay, I also-- I always was curious why women can play among men but men cannot play with women in women tournament. This is interesting question, yeah?
[00:47:39.43] [Fiona Steil-Antoni] You have to ask someone else.
[00:47:40.06] [Ilya Smirin] Interesting question, yeah?
[00:47:41.29] [Fiona Steil-Antoni] Someone else than me.
[00:47:42.58] [Ilya Smirin] Yeah, I'm not asking, basically. It's a rhetorical question, let's say.
[00:47:48.17] [He laughs] With today, we are speaking on chess-related topics a little bit. Not-- because one game less.
[00:47:54.73] [Fiona Steil-Antoni] Yes.
[00:47:55.12] [Ilya Smirin] One game less--
[00:47:55.90] [Fiona Steil-Antoni] We have a little bit more time.
[00:47:57.34] [Ilya Smirin] And we should spend some time, yeah, somehow. c5 at least interesting move, independent obvious question about possibility of norm, of Grandmaster norm.
[00:48:09.40] [Fiona Steil-Antoni] I think absolutely it must be possible.
[00:48:12.04] [Melodic saxophone music plays]
[00:48:12.43] [Jess] This tweet ended up going viral, and FIDE sacked Ilya Smirin from his job as commentator for these sexist remarks. This story even ended up on the front page of BBC News. And Ilya Smirin's co-commentator for this event, Fiona Steil-Antoni-- yep, that Fiona who you heard at the top of this episode-- also ended up going viral from this story. In fact, that's why we asked her to talk to us, because we wanted to hear from her what it was like, in her own words.
[00:48:45.73] [Fiona Steil-Antoni] It's actually funny that it's the first time that I'm publicly speaking about my experience of what happened. I think what's well documented is Ilya Smirin was fired for the remarks he made before the last round, I believe. There was just one round he didn't do. And I think a lot of people will have seen the clips of-- of what he said. Now, I think the main thing that maybe some people didn't realize is he didn't just say this out of the blue on day nine. It's just nobody had really picked up on it before.
[00:49:23.25] I think for me, it was difficult to have to listen to-- to those small remarks every day, but at the same time I felt, okay, I mean, we have a producer team. This is a FIDE event. People are watching this and thinking it's fine.
[00:49:39.72] [Piano music plays]
[00:49:40.18] [Ryan] But before we let Fiona take it away, in case you're kind of lost as to the nuance of Ilya Smirin's comments in that clip, let's unpack it and give some context. Fiona and Ilya are commentating on round nine of the Women's Grand Prix tournament in Astana, the capital city of Kazakhstan. During the live broadcast, one of the viewers of the event puts a question into the chat asking if Woman Grandmaster Zhu Jiner is going to make a Grandmaster norm in this women-only event.
[00:50:11.14] [Jess] As Fiona points out, this is a really interesting question. But before she can answer it, Ilya interrupts and asks why a woman would want a male grandmaster title in the first place.
[00:50:23.74] [Ryan] There is more to this exchange that we need to talk about. But first we should talk about how titles work in chess.
[00:50:30.25] [Playful music plays]
[00:50:30.49] We've discussed it in previous episodes and mentioned that it's a really complicated system, but basically players have to earn a certain number of what's known as norms, a high level of performance in a chess tournament. There's lots of rules and regulations around norms, and you have to earn several norms, have a certain Elo rating, and win or be a finalist in certain tournaments to receive the four recognized elite chess titles of Candidate Master, FIDE Master, International Master, and Grandmaster.
[00:51:01.36] [Jess] In addition, there are two types of titles in chess: open titles, meaning any over-the-board chess player can earn them, and women's titles, which are modelled on the open titles but can only be awarded to a woman player. The women's titles are awarded on a less-restrictive norm system than the open titles, and on average, women's titles are achieved at an Elo that's about 200 points lower than the open version of the title.
[00:51:27.28] [Ryan] In essence, women's chess titles are slightly easier to earn than their open title counterparts. The idea is that, because chess has long been held as a game for men, where women have not been well represented or even welcomed, and have not had the same opportunities as men, a separate system for women helps to restore some of the balance. In a game where women have been historically and systematically discouraged from playing, women's titles create greater incentives for women to play. That being said, not everyone agrees with separate women's titles, and we'll talk about why this is in more detail next episode. But just as a teaser, Grandmaster Judit Polgar never accepted a woman's title because she has a strict policy of only playing in open competitions. Woman titles are separate from but modelled on the open title system. Here's Lile again.
[00:52:23.86] [Music fades]
[00:52:25.31] [Lile Koridze] If there was total equality in chess, like, for example from 100 players there was 50 women players and 50 men, of course, that would be stupid to have women titles. But now it's not that way. So we need to have some encouragement when there's women's titles. We need this encouragement to have some Grandmaster titles and stuff. When it becomes really equal, when the women will be at the same level as men, in chess, of course, then that won't be necessary.
[00:52:52.13] [Playful music plays]
[00:52:52.47] [Jess] But as we can also see from Judit Polgar, the existence of women-only titles does not exempt women from being able to earn open titles. Which brings us back to Ilya Smirin. [Ilya Smirin, synthesized voice with reverb] Why she wants to be like man Grandmaster in this case? [Ilya laughs, with reverb]
[00:53:10.62] [Melodic saxophone music plays]
[00:53:11.06] [Jess] Fiona doesn't respond here , because there isn't anything to say, or at least nothing to say in the middle of a live public broadcast. Ilya is asking, why does Zhu Jiner want to be a male Grandmaster. And the answer is so obvious it doesn't need to be said, but we'll say it anyway, because we're not on a live broadcast. Zhu Jiner doesn't want a men's Grandmaster title because that title doesn't exist. She's a woman who plays chess who is looking for the acknowledgement given through an open title, not a men's title, as Ilya incorrectly calls it-- just like any other elite player.
[00:53:51.36] [Ryan] The interesting tidbit here is not that Zhu Jiner as a woman is earning norms to become a Grandmaster. It's that she can earn an open norm at a women's tournament. One of the rules for scoring a GM norm is that at least one third of your opponents that you play in the tournament must be a Grandmaster. And in this tournament six of the 12 participants are women who hold the title of GM, meaning that even though it's a women's tournament, open norms could still be earned.
[00:54:22.53] [Jess] The whole point of women's tournaments and titles is to create better equality, and that's exactly what it's doing here. It's a scaffold within the existing open system to give women a leg up and ease some of the burden that goes along with being part of an underrepresented demographic. It's not divided by women and men. It's a pool of everyone, with a separate support system for women because they are so disadvantaged in the sport being built on a foundation of sexism. But, clearly, Ilya Smirin doesn't see it that way.
[00:54:57.51] [Ilya Smirin] Well, it's possible basically to make a man norm in the women's tournament?
[00:55:02.75] [Fiona Steil-Antoni] Of course. Why not?
[00:55:04.98] [Ilya Smirin] I don't know.
[00:55:06.07] [Fiona Steil-Antoni] I mean--
[00:55:06.49] [Ilya Smirin] For instance-- for instance, why not? Why women can play with men and men cannot play with women? It's also why not?
[00:55:12.54] [He laughs]
[00:55:12.81] [Fiona Steil-Antoni] A question for another day. Yeah?
[00:55:17.61] [Jess, mockingly] If women can play with men, why can't men play with women?
[00:55:20.85] [Jess laughs]
[00:55:21.53] [Melodic saxophone music plays]
[00:55:21.87] [Ryan] Again, this must have been really hard for Fiona to be polite. The answer to this is just as obvious-- because that defeats the purpose of the separate title system. Then we're just back to open tournaments. But what he's asking could also be taken to be more insidious than that: maybe women should just play amongst themselves. Taken another way, he's suggesting full segregation based on gender.
[00:55:49.71] [Music fades]
[00:55:50.18] [Jess] Okay, now here's Fiona again to explain in her own words what this whole experience was like, and how she ended up where she did in the clip that went viral.
[00:56:00.92] [Fiona Steil-Antoni] Maybe I should have spoken up, but it's a difficult situation, because if I say something, it's just going to make working together more awkward. So at the time, I just decided to get on with it. And then came that fateful day, where basically I think I'm very patient and I have overall a very high tolerance limit for bullshit, but that day he just reached that limit and crossed it. And I just kind of-- I spoke back and I fought my side. And I didn't think at the time that anything was going to happen, because the event didn't have very high viewer numbers.
[00:56:46.04] I received some messages throughout the tournament from friends that were watching that said, "I don't know how you deal with this," because it was-- I mean, it was not horrible. I don't want to paint my experience as something awful, but it was unpleasant, let's say, and I think it was unpleasant for me and it was unpleasant for some of the viewers who I think were wondering, why is this guy commentating on a women's event when he holds these opinions? So I was absolutely not expecting it to blow up, and then it all just happened very quickly somehow. It gained a lot of traction very quickly, and I barely slept that night because so much was happening, and I'd never been caught in the middle of-- I know the chess world is never-- you know, there is always some drama, there is always some things happening, but I had never been caught right in the middle of it before. So it was pretty intense.
[00:57:49.72] And then in the morning, I got contacted by someone from FIDE and they said he wasn't going to be there that day, which I thought was for the best, just because it would have been very hard, I think, for me, for him, and for everyone to do another to do another day together.
[00:58:09.95] The one thing I will also say is, you know, I don't hold a grudge against him. I don't think, oh, he's such a terrible person. I mean, he has a lot of good sides, and overall-- overall we had a good time. I think it's just that, unfortunately, a lot of people still hold the kind of opinions that he voiced, but most people, if they have those opinions, either don't take a job at a women's event, or do not voice them in the commentary. So-- and, you know, if that girl hadn't clipped that moment and tweeted it, it could very well be that nobody would ever have known about any of it. Like, I was fully expecting the tournament to be over in a couple of days, and that was going to be that, basically.
[00:59:06.14] To be honest, I was absolutely shocked how the story made mainstream news. Like, when I was still there in Kazakhstan-- I read the BBC every single day-- and I see my picture on the front page with Smirin, and it said, "Chess commentator fired for sexism." That was so surreal, you know, opening this news outlet that I read every day and see my picture on the front page? I was like, what is going on?
[00:59:37.16] Unfortunately, in the chess world, there is still a lot of that, you know, old-boys-club mentality, and unfortunately all the way to the very top. So it sounds kind of crazy, but I can't even say that I was so shocked. You know, like, of course, I was shocked. Of course, I didn't expect that he would say the things he said. But at the same time, you know, it's unfortunately not the first time I'd heard things like that. It's just most people don't voice it on a live broadcast.
[01:00:12.75] At the time, I really didn't think that I was throwing him under the bus for something he had said in private, because he had said so many things during those nine days, some on camera and some off camera, that it was actually I couldn't remember which was which, you know? So it wasn't-- because he actually told me later on that it wasn't fair by me that I had brought up something that was said in private, and I genuinely just couldn't remember.
[01:00:45.48] That clip that people will have seen, I was just angry. I think you need to push me quite a lot to-- I'm overall tolerant, very patient, but he really crossed the limit for me, and I thought, okay, enough is enough.
[01:01:04.06] I didn't think, you know, again, in that moment, suddenly a million people are going to see this clip. Like, I thought this is just between him and me, because clearly not that many people were watching. And for me, it was just I wanted him to know, like, I absolutely cannot accept what you're saying, and I completely disagree, and I've had enough. Like, I just wanted him to know, that's enough. Like, I'm not sitting here next to you any longer while you are saying these things, because, you know, like, throughout the whole previous nine days, so many times I had just glossed over what he said and not reacted. And it made me angry even throughout the tournament, because I am his co-commentator, and if I'm not fighting back, I'm kind of silently agreeing. But I had weighed up for myself that there wasn't-- there was just not that much point until that moment to surge conflict and to look for confrontation.
[01:02:11.51] I was under no illusion that I was going to change his perspective or change his opinion. I think my emotions, I was just fed up, basically.
[01:02:23.27] I mean, to be honest, I do think that it should be on FIDE if they have a broadcast to check in, at least. You know, they don't have to watch six hours every day. But it is their broadcast. They hire the commentators. So at the end of the day, it is their responsibility. And I think they made the right call in the end. There was just-- there was no choice. He couldn't come back that day after all the shitstorm that happened online. But, yeah, I think we should never have gotten to that point in the first place.
[01:03:00.10] [Melodic saxophone music plays]
[01:03:01.04] [Ryan] Our impression after talking with Fiona is that she's been more than fair to Ilya. And we're in agreement with the sentiment that FIDE made the right call in firing him, but also that this shouldn't have happened in the first place.
[01:03:15.36] [Jess] This is the statement that FIDE released on September 28th after firing Ilya Smirin from commentating the last round of the Women's Grand Prix. Quote, "During yesterday's Women's Grand Prix live broadcast, one of the announcers expressed some very embarrassing comments. Although we have the greatest respect for Grandmaster Ilya Smirin as a chess player, the views he expressed on air are completely unacceptable, offensive, and do not represent any of the values that FIDE stands for. Therefore, we unreservedly apologize to all of those who were offended. Additionally, GM Smirin will not continue as a FIDE commentator with immediate effect. FIDE not only strives to increase women's representation in professional sports and official positions, but also to change the perception of chess as purely a men's world. Our community has to be a place where women feel safe and respected. Therefore, any action that carries disrespect, sexism, or physical, verbal, or emotional assault is unacceptable," end quote.
[01:04:20.27] [Melodic saxophone music plays]
[01:04:20.63] Certainly, it's a shame that Fiona was in that position at all. And also, Ilya Smirin should probably not have been asked to commentate a woman's event if he doesn't actually think women are good chess players. Failing that, he definitely should have been pulled from the broadcast sooner-- like, maybe before the ninth round?
[01:04:40.42] [Jess chuckles]
[01:04:41.23] [Ryan] But another thing to note here is that this event didn't end Ilya Smirin's career. Sure, it's a blemish on his record, and he might never be asked-- I mean, I kind of hope he's never asked-- to commentate for a women's event again. But it's not the end for him.
[01:04:58.29] [Music fades]
[01:04:59.16] [Upbeat, playful music plays]
[01:04:59.60] [Jess] One of the things that has continued to amaze me in interviewing women in chess about misogyny is that they genuinely do not bear men any ill will. Not men like Smirin who make clear and public mistakes, but just to men in chess on the whole. Despite how many bad experiences they have or hear about, women in chess remain optimistic that there can one day be equality, and they're always quick to clarify that it's not all men. Here's Fiona again.
[01:05:32.15] [Fiona Steil-Antoni] I think until that incident with Smirin, overall, I never had any big problems. I loved growing up in the chess world. All my best friends to this day come from the chess world. I always got on well with boys. I never had bad experiences. So my experience overall has been fantastic. And I love everything about it. But I know other girls who unfortunately had the complete opposite experience. I know a fair few girls who quit chess because it was so bad. So it's always, for me, a tricky topic. But, yeah, I always-- I don't want to get too negative, because I met so many incredible people, and many incredible men and boys in the chess world. So not everyone is bad, obviously. But unfortunately the ones who are can ruin chess for an entire demographic, in this case girls, women.
[01:06:36.69] It makes me sad, because I had such a great and fun childhood and teenage years, and I loved the chess world. I still do. And I just wish it wasn't for that ugly side of it sometimes.
[01:06:53.31] [Gloomy music plays]
[01:06:56.24] [Ryan] By the way, Zhu Jiner did become what Ilya Smirin calls a man Grandmaster after achieving her final norm in April 2023.
[01:07:05.57] [Jess] We didn't know Zhu Jiner's name until we went to write this episode. Despite the fact that Ilya smirin got canned for comments related to her career, his was the name that took up the headlines. Even when they're being shit on and disparaged against, we still don't say women's names in chess. As Fiona herself tweeted, making BBC News for all the wrong reasons is not what women want from their chess careers. They want to make headlines for the same reason that players like Magnus Carlsen make headlines-- because they're making a mark in the sport and are being celebrated the way they deserve to be. Here's Lile.
[01:07:47.27] [Lile Koridze] It's so, so, so hard. I mean, yeah, but I will keep doing as long as I'm alive chess. I will have still the community which really supports me as a chess player, and fortunately I still have this kind of community. And I will be chess coach and everything chess related. No one and nothing can stop me of doing that.
[01:08:07.56] [Mellow electronic music plays]
[01:08:10.52] [Ryan] Next time on Rooked, we're going to talk more about misogyny in chess-- specifically, why women are less likely to play it and what needs to change to make the game more equitable.
[01:08:21.41] [Jess] We're going to bring back more guests from past episodes, and you're going to hear more from some of the guests we introduced this episode. There's still a lot to tackle in this topic. We're going to try and wrap it up next time, but stay tuned. Part two is coming, and it's going to be just as important as this episode was.
[01:08:42.01] [Music fades]
[01:08:47.27] [Ilya Smirin, synthesized voice with reverb] Why she wants to be like man Grandmaster in this case?
[01:08:51.01] [Laughs, with reverb]
[01:08:53.24] [Mellow electronic music plays]
[01:08:54.13] [Ryan] Thank you to our King-tier Patreon subscribers: Umaima Baig, Madelyn, Gord, and Mya Schmidt, Stefan Vezina, the Colorado Avalanche Institute of New Zealand, Marie Edwards, and Derek Keane. Thanks also to our Pawn-level subscribers, too!
[01:09:13.58] [Music fades]
[01:09:17.56] [Rooked outro plays]
[01:09:22.53] [Jess] Rooked: The Cheaters' Gambit is written and produced by me, Jess Schmidt.
[01:09:26.38] [Ryan] And by me, Ryan Webb.
[01:09:27.97] [Jess] Our amazing music is by the ever-talented Lorna Gilfedder.
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[01:09:34.41] [Jess] Our executive producers are Rooney and Indigo.
[01:09:37.29] [both] Speak!
[01:09:38.81] [Rooney and Indigo howling]
[01:09:41.48] [Jess] This podcast is recorded on the traditional Treaty 7 territory of the Blackfoot Confederacy, the land of the Siksika, the Kainai, the Piikani, as well as the Stoney Nakoda and the Tsuut'ina Nations.
[01:09:52.58] [Ryan] We acknowledge that this territory is home to the Metis Nation of Alberta Region 3 within the historical Northwest mighty homeland. In the spirit of respect, reciprocity, and truth, we honour and acknowledge all nations, Indigenous and non, who live, work, and play on this land, and who honour and celebrate this territory.
[01:10:12.03] [Jess] This gathering place, and therefore this podcast, provides us with an opportunity to engage in and demonstrate reconciliation. The Government of Canada has not followed through on a number of the Calls to Action that have been suggested by the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada.
[01:10:28.16] Healthcare is supposed to be a basic right for all Canadians, but Indigenous people in Canada do not have equal access to care. A complicated patchwork of policies, legislation, agreements, and cultural barriers make for inequitable access to healthcare and services. For example, suicide rates are five to seven times higher for Indigenous youth as compared to non-indigenous youth. Proper support and interventions for at-risk youth, through things like healthcare services, can help to bring these numbers down dramatically.
[01:11:00.99] It's an unfortunate and avoidable reality that Indian status is an indicator of health, poverty, and education in Canada. Indigenous Canadians have worse health and educational outcomes, worse housing, and less access to critical services than any other population in Canada. This is due to federal funding practises, policies, and discriminatory legislation, some of which has been in place since the 1800s.
[01:11:28.38] Childhood trauma from things like poverty, overcrowded housing, and with mental health or addiction issues in the family, causes a trickle-down effect into costly healthcare problems for adults. The better childhoods we can guarantee for all Canadians, the more money and lives are saved downstream. The World Health Organization says for every dollar spent on a child's welfare, taxpayers save $7 down the line. Healthcare is a human right, and all Canadians deserve equal access. To learn more, visit the link in our show notes. Do better, Canada.
[01:12:08.34] [Music fades]