Episode 2: The Players [PART 1 - Magnus]

[00:00:00.00] [Gloomy synth music plays]
[00:00:00.29] [Brin-Jonathan Butler] Even on 60 Minutes, Magnus Carlsen, one of the funniest things he said-- he asked Magnus, "When do you think about chess, like, when you're not playing it? How often do you think about it?" And he said, "I'm thinking about it right now. I'm solving a problem."
[00:00:11.00] [Bob Simon] Do you ever stop thinking about chess?
[00:00:12.98] [Magnus Carlsen] Sometimes, but right now I was actually thinking about chess. I was thinking about something specific in my preparation for my game tomorrow.
[00:00:21.44] [Brin-Jonathan Butler] He's in a very different place than most people are mentally. He can certainly demonstrate a degree of focus that looks bordering on the occult, but the rest of the time, I've heard his personality has not endeared himself to a lot of people.
[00:00:38.12] [Rooked theme music plays]
[00:00:39.50] [Ryan] If you listened to episode one, which we hope you did, you already know the bones of this scandal. Two elite chess players play a game of chess. One player accuses the other of cheating. All hell breaks loose.
[00:00:53.12] [Jess] But to truly understand the scandal and its potential impact on the future of chess, you need to understand why these players at the centre of it matter. They represent the best and the worst aspects of the game, and even the way that chess itself has developed in the last 20 years. So, in this two-part episode, we're going to do a deep dive on who these players are: where they came from, what led them to this moment where they sat across the board from one another, and how their respective futures have been changed by this one game.
[00:01:30.39] [Ryan] Because this is a tale 0of perhaps the greatest chess player of all time.
[00:01:37.10] [Jess] This is a tale of one man taking the honour of the game into his own hands.
[00:01:44.28] [Ryan] This is a tale of cheating, of lies and conspiracies.
[00:01:50.90] [both] This is Rooked: The Cheaters' Gambit.
[00:01:55.88] [Rooked theme music fades]
[00:02:01.76] [Gloomy synth plays]
[00:02:07.64] [Ryan] I'm Ryan Webb. I play chess and now I guess I podcast, too.
[00:02:12.56] [Jess] I'm Jess Schmidt. I podcast, and sometimes I begrudgingly play chess. But I always love to talk about it.
[00:02:20.57] [Ryan] You know from the last episode of Rooked that there are two big names in this scandal-- Magnus Carlsen and Hans Niemann. They both have a role to play here and in the chess world at large, but our job is to just try and present the facts and get out of the way so you can form your own opinion. So here's part one of this two-part episode. We begin with the GOAT--
[00:02:41.42] [Goat bleating]
[00:02:42.17] --the greatest of all time, if you choose to believe it: Magnus Carlsen.
[00:02:53.86] [Jess] But before we get started, I just want to acknowledge that, obviously, I'm an interloper in chess. Like, I literally only became interested because of this story.
[00:03:04.72] [Upbeat piano music plays]
[00:03:04.96] I do not care about strategy. I don't even really like playing chess. I truly am just here for the drama. But I want to understand that drama as intimately as I can. And one of the things that I've been researching and trying to understand is Magnus.
[00:03:23.02] I knew who Magnus was even before all this. He's one of those famous people. You might not know exactly why or where you know him from, but you for sure know his name. Ryan would talk about him sometimes-- games he was playing, other amazing accomplishments he somehow has had the time to rack up outside being World Chess Champion. But one of the things I've learned in undertaking this project is that, even though it seems like Magnus was destined from the start to be one of the greatest chess players of all time, it hasn't come without sacrifices and concessions... and a lot of hard work.
[00:04:01.22] He has a sort of effortless and aloof vibe, but it's one that I think he has spent a lot of time curating. I think after all our digging and contemplation, the one thing I'm sure about when it comes to Magnus is that he is very good at keeping his personal and public personas separate. And even the public persona can only be known at arms length.
[00:04:23.09] [Brin-Jonathan Butler] Magnus is on The Simpsons. Magnus was a fashion model. Magnus is selling his chess app for tens of millions of dollars to chess.com. He occupies a very unusual role outside of chess. Chess is a very insular game, and despite having, you know, upwards of 500 million people playing it, it's a hermetically sealed game that generally has hermetically sealed champions. And Magnus, I think it's fair to say he still is that. He's still a pretty enigmatic figure, but he's gotten more publicity than just about anybody since Bobby Fischer.
[00:04:58.22] [Ryan] We're going to talk more about Bobby Fischer later, but first, I want to introduce you to the voice you've just heard and that you've also heard at the top of the episode.
[00:05:06.72] [Brin-Jonathan Butler] My name is Brin-Jonathan Butler. I'm the author of three books, and I'm a journalist working and living in New York City.
[00:05:13.16] [Ryan] So I think I just need to rewind a bit here.
[00:05:16.21] [Tape rewinding]
[00:05:17.44] [Upbeat piano music plays]
[00:05:17.85] I've been obsessed with chess for around three years now, and Magnus Carlsen is still an enigma to me. I was scrolling through TikTok a while ago, and I stumbled upon some dude recommending a book about Magnus Carlsen, and I was like, "Hey, I know that guy." Honestly, the cover drew me in right away, and I know you're not supposed to judge a book by its cover, but I'll do whatever the fuck I want, book!
[00:05:40.94] You just need to look up The Grandmaster: Magnus Carlsen and the Match that Made Chess Great Again by Brin-Jonathan Butler. Tell me that you're not immediately ordering it based on the cover alone. I honestly can't describe it enough to do it justice.
[00:05:55.09] Anyway, I gave [bleep] my money and immediately ordered it for next-day delivery. The book fascinated me for so many reasons. Brin writes with such poeticism when he talks about chess. It isn't just, "this piece goes to this square and captures this piece." It's a battle, a war being waged between two minds, and the cost of losing can range from the $5 you bet on the streets of New York to the very essence of your being. Brin captures the gravitas of high-level chess, and he did it while giving us a glimpse into his relationship with chess. The book doubles as a sports biography and a memoir, and the result is a case study on what makes Magnus such a compelling character, chess or no chess.
[00:06:40.30] [Upbeat music plays]
[00:06:40.63] [Jess] The content of the book ostensibly deals with the 2016 World Chess Championship, but Brin also goes into his own family history, the political climate in America at that moment, Magnus' background, Sergey Karjakin, who was Magnus' opponent in that match, as well as a bunch of other awesome chess and chess-related stories. You just need to read the book. It's great. Especially if you want to learn more about Falafel Backgammon, which you should.
[00:07:07.75] One of the best things Brin does in The Grandmaster-- for our purposes, especially-- is he really captures how uncapturable Magnus Carlsen is.
[00:07:17.50] [Brin-Jonathan Butler] I got a chance to speak with him I think after the book came out, or maybe right around the time it was coming out. He came to the UN and played, and my friend was a journalist who-- I think he was one of 20 people who got to play him. So to make that journalist laugh, because I was completely unable to interview Magnus-- I always have a notebook in my back pocket-- I begged Magnus like a fanboy, "Could you please sign my book?" So that's the exclusive engagement I've had with Magnus Carlsen, is asking him to sign-- I don't remember even what the book was anymore, or where the autograph was-- but I just wanted to have the silliness of finally engaging him.
[00:07:54.59] But I did engage many people around him. So the book, in many respects, was sort of more Frank Sinatra's Got a Cold in terms of interviewing his dad, and his coach, and many other Grandmasters that knew him, or photographers that had spent time with him on the way up to becoming a world champion.
[00:08:14.99] It's interesting because I have the same agent at CAA as Magnus Carlsen and still was not able to get access to him. These guys are not all that inclined to have an outsider profile them, which is something that I've been doing for 10 years, is profiling a lot of pretty famous people. But Magnus, no, totally shut me down.
[00:08:36.14] [Upbeat piano music plays]
[00:08:36.47] [Ryan] Brin wrote a 200-page book about Magnus Carlsen, and even he never got a chance to speak with him. Magnus is a fucking wall when it comes to journalists.
[00:08:46.70] In The Grandmaster, Brin talks about a Vice article that was written by Stephen Keefe about Magnus in 2014 titled Magnus Carlsen, World Chess Champion, is Kind Of a Dick. Keefe details his harrowing experience of trying to relate to Magnus in any capacity, while Magnus just totally stonewalls him. And here I mean to delay or block-- a request, process, or person-- by refusing to answer questions or by giving evasive replies, not the chess opening thought to have first been played between Howard Staunton and John Cochrane in London 1842, you fucking nerds.
[00:09:22.88] [Jess] Here's an excerpt from the article. "What? But he's the greatest chess player ever. It can't be his fault. I'm the loser that asked stupid questions and embarrassed myself in front of my hero. Right? I was so embarrassed, I wanted to punch myself in the face, or tie a belt around my neck and choke myself out, but not in the sexy way I usually do it. Then I started to think about it. What if we had been two people forgetting all the labels and their associated expectations? Well, then he'd be a dick. Sure, I am probably one in a long parade of nosy people who want to pry into his life, and maybe he'd spent most of his morning fielding dumb questions. But does his mastery and fame give him the licence to be dismissive and antagonistic? Probably not. I had made the mistake of holding Carlsen to a higher personal standard because he is famous and good at chess. There's no reason that he should be any better at handling a bad day than the rest of us. He was a dick to me, like we all are sometimes."
[00:10:24.70] [Ryan] Despite all this, Magnus is somehow one of the most beloved players in the history of the game. And I think that really says as much about chess as it does about Magnus.
[00:10:35.41] [Jess] There's something about Magnus that really toes the line between exceptionally dry, sarcastic humour, and just being full of himself.
[00:10:44.05] [Magnus Carlsen] I mean, I wouldn't call myself an arrogant bad boy, especially the bad boy part I'm not so sure about. Arrogant, I'm very happy with.
[00:10:52.96] [Laughter]
[00:10:53.28] [Upbeat piano music plays]
[00:10:53.59] [Jess] I think this is what appeals to the chess audience the most, outside of the chess itself. It's his wittiness, his ability to paint the caricature of himself that he hams up a bit, but also believes at least a little bit, too.
[00:11:07.98] [Ryan] For example, here's Magnus being interviewed by Rainn Wilson. You may know Rainn as Bill Hudley from the 2003 Rob Zombie hit House of 1000 Corpses, or maybe even as Gargamel in Smurfs: The Lost Village.
[00:11:21.17] [Rainn Wilson, as Dwight Schrute] Don't be an idiot.
[00:11:22.49] [Jess, chuckling] Actually, he's Dwight Schrute from The Office. Why are you wasting our time with this joke that's not even really funny? Okay, here's the clip.
[00:11:30.44] [Rainn Wilson] What would the first sentence of your autobiography be?
[00:11:33.29] [Magnus Carlsen] "I'm not a genius."
[00:11:34.34] [Rainn Wilson] And what would the title of your autobiography be?
[00:11:36.80] [Magnus Carlsen] Magnus Carlsen: Chess Genius. I don't know
[00:11:38.96] [Rainn laughs]
[00:11:40.31] [Ryan] Okay, yeah, Magnus is funny. He's playful. Here's an exchange a bit later in the video.
[00:11:46.07] [Rainn Wilson] People think about chess geniuses as hanging out in their basement and obsessively, like, chewing on their own skin and, you know, maybe bodies hidden somewhere in the house.
[00:11:56.28] [Magnus Carlsen] Well, you know, I'm only 21 years old, so give me some time to develop the crazy, you know?
[00:12:00.92] [Rainn laughs]
[00:12:01.16] [Jess] Yeah, clearly Magnus is quick-witted, able to think on his feet. He touches on the, quote, crazy, as he puts it, which is kind of a thing in and of itself when it comes to chess. We've all heard stories of chess players losing their minds a bit, for lack of a better term. And if you haven't heard about this, then classic Rooked line: we're gonna get to it in a later episode, so hold tight.
[00:12:23.90] [Ryan] I would say Magnus really isn't one to shy away from being a touch braggadocious, to put it generously. When asked who he thinks is the best player of all time, this is his response.
[00:12:35.15] [Magnus Carlsen] I would say my favourite player from the past is probably myself, like, three, four years ago.
[00:12:41.84] [Audience erupts in laughter, applauds]
[00:12:48.52] [Jess] And if that's not enough to gain a bit of insight into Magnus' personality and how he views himself, then listen to this.
[00:12:55.32] [Magnus Carlsen] In terms of being entertaining, obviously, I'm an extremely entertaining person. Like, my-- my jokes are drier than wood.
[00:13:05.49] [Gloomy piano plays]
[00:13:05.94] [Ryan] Magnus clearly has a sense of humour. But sometimes this humour comes across as a bit arrogant.
[00:13:12.27] [Jess] Phhh, a bit.
[00:13:13.77] [Ryan laughs]
[00:13:14.88] [Ryan] Here's Magnus' response when asked about a game he played against Fabiano Caruana during the 2018 World Chess Championship.
[00:13:21.82] [reporter] So when did you understand that this was a draw?
[00:13:28.04] [interviewer] So, Magnus, I think the question for you. You know, why were you playing on so long? When did you understand it was a draw? I mean--
[00:13:37.27] [Magnus Carlsen] When did I understand it was a draw?
[00:13:39.83] [Audience chuckles]
[00:13:41.20] [Magnus Carlsen] I understood it immediately.
[00:13:43.09] [Audience erupts in laughter]
[00:13:44.59] [Magnus Carlsen] That doesn't mean you shouldn't play.
[00:13:46.21] [Upbeat piano music plays]
[00:13:46.63] [Ryan] Magnus is clearly upset with the question. It's like he's offended that the reporter is bringing into question his calculating abilities, when that's clearly not the reporter's intentions. But you sort of get the sense that Magnus is able to say "Magnesian" things without any repercussions. And, yes, Magnesian is actually a common adjective used in the chess community to refer to anything that comes across as Magnus-like. And it has nothing to do with rocks, or minerals, or magnesium, even. So, please, leave if that's why you're here. We don't fucking talk about rocks on this podcast, okay? We're not here to talk about thunder eggs or oolitic limestone.
[00:14:25.30] [Jess] Ryan, this is why you do not write unsupervised.
[00:14:28.52] [Ryan laughs]
[00:14:28.97] Is this a stupid bit?
[00:14:29.78] [Jess] Yeah, definitely, but it's fine.
[00:14:31.33] [Ryan, laughing] Okay.
[00:14:31.83] [Gloomy music plays]
[00:14:32.19] [Jess] Anyway, as you probably gathered, in every one of those clips, the audience-- whether it was just Magnus and an interviewer or a room full of spectators, media, and other players-- everyone eats it up. It's just a simple and true fact that Magnus is a truly beloved figure in the chess world... even if he sometimes comes across as a bit blunt
[00:14:56.79] [Music fades]
[00:15:00.17] What else can we tell you about Magnus Carlsen? We were really tempted to just give a ChatGPT infodump here about Magnus' bio, just to, like, flesh out how Magnus became Magnus. But, honestly, it was so boring and you deserve better than that. So here are the things that we actually care about for Magnus' background and that we think are relevant to this story.
[00:15:23.03] [Upbeat piano music plays]
[00:15:23.48] Magnus' birthday is November 30, 1990. He's a Sagittarius.
[00:15:28.79] [Ryan, sighing] How the fuck is that relevant?
[00:15:30.44] [Jess] Okay, what a Piscean thing to say! Those who know, know. And will not be taking any further hostile questions on this.
[00:15:38.67] [Ryan] Okay, this podcast is cancelled.
[00:15:40.79] [Jess] No, astrology is low-hanging fruit to make fun of, Ryan. Do better.
[00:15:44.33] [Ryan] Okay, well, guess I'll just delete all my poop jokes later on, then.
[00:15:47.69] [Jess] Mmm-hmm, I'm sure you will.
[00:15:49.24] [Upbeat piano music plays]
[00:15:49.55] [Ryan] Magnus is Norwegian. That's important because, contextually, he's, like, one of the most famous people in Norway. There's one of the members of ABBA, the guy who painted The Scream, and Magnus. Just kidding, that's very reductive and insulting to Norway, but you get the picture. He's a household name globally, but also a national hero and icon.
[00:16:12.09] [Jess] Magnus started playing chess when he was five years old, which seems very precocious, but apparently that's typical for a lot of high-level chess players. There's a cute story-- whether it's true or something he invented for the media, I don't know-- about how he discovered an old chess set in his family's attic and started his career by playing against and learning from his father. Five years old, guys. What were you doing when you were five, Ryan?
[00:16:36.15] [Ryan] Honestly, probably pooping my pants.
[00:16:39.39] [Crickets chirping]
[00:16:42.55] [Jess] Hmm, guess that one didn't get deleted. I can't believe that out of the two of us, you're the better chess player. From pooping your pants to podcasting-- you've made it.
[00:16:51.16] [Ryan] Yeah, this truly is a rags-to-riches story. What were you doing when you were five?
[00:16:56.11] Mm, I actually was precocious in my own way, and my mom had to put me in school early so that I would have other people to talk at instead of just her. And here I am, 25 years later, still talking at people. I was a prodigy at talking shit.
[00:17:10.06] [Ryan] And I was a prodigy at making it.
[00:17:12.55] [Jess] Okay, you stand by this joke? You're doubling down on this joke?
[00:17:15.55] [Ryan] Yeah, I'm not gonna change who I am for this podcast. Everybody poops, and it's funny to make jokes about, okay? After Rooked is done, our next project is all about pooping.
[00:17:27.17] [Jess] Mmm-hmm. I Would never yuck another person's yum, but I will not be participating in that project. Thank you.
[00:17:33.23] [Ryan, synthesized voice with reverb] Everybody poops.
[00:17:36.31] [Jess] Okay, next interesting Magnus thing: he's played a lot of chess. He's very tactical and smart. He became a Grandmaster at the age of 13 years, four months, 27 days-- yes, they do measure it in days-- which makes him the eighth youngest ever at the time of this recording. That's pretty cool.
[00:17:54.74] Honestly, after winning the 2023 World Cup, Magnus has won every major chess event at least once, which no other player has done. Not to say that others like Kasparov or Karpov didn't win them all back in the day, but years ago, there was not nearly as many tournaments as there is now.
[00:18:12.50] Here's what Brin had to say when we asked him about Magnus' success compared to someone like former World Champion Bobby Fischer.
[00:18:19.46] [Brin-Jonathan Butler] I still don't think he has anywhere near the purchase culturally that Fischer had. I don't think that's an opinion. It's just bared out. If you go back to read the New York Times during Fischer at the 1972 World Championships, that news dominated Watergate and it dominated Vietnam. And that was certainly not the case when I was covering Magnus Carlsen here in New York City after Trump was elected. It was a footnote. And I'm not trying to take anything away from his achievement there, but very, very different than what Fischer represented in his time with the Cold War.
[00:18:54.80] [Upbeat piano music plays]
[00:18:56.27] [Ryan] Regardless of whether or not you agree that Magnus is truly the greatest player of all time, in terms of career achievements, Magnus has basically done everything you can do in chess. Brin put it really well in our interview with him.
[00:19:09.89] [Brin-Jonathan Butler] Chess is a game of obsession of status, of ratings, of measurement. Almost every Grandmaster I ever met, within five seconds they tell me they were a Grandmaster. And the analogue I use to that is Mensa. I've never met anybody who is a member in Mensa who didn't lead with that they're a member of Mensa. They want it to speak for them. It's a weird thing, because it's status obsessed but it also seems very defensive and insecure. A chess Grandmaster sounds like it's a Knight from Arthur's Round Table. And you're like, yeah, but if I was 1,500th in the world at Parcheesi, I don't know that I'd go around bragging about it. I don't know that anybody would necessarily care. So I just think there's a lot about what encompasses the genius of Magnus Carlsen.
[00:19:57.35] Half of it, we're obsessed with how it illuminates the watermark of his personality and the nature of his mind and genius, and the other half is we're trying to see a reflection of ourselves and understand ourselves as a species better. And chess for 1,500 years has continued to maintain that relevance.
[00:20:16.04] [Upbeat piano music plays]
[00:20:16.52] [Jess] The point of chess, at the highest level, anyway, is to do exactly what Magnus has done: win, have the highest rating, collect all the trophies and prizes, and sit on the throne comfortable that these things prove you are the best. You're supposed to hold that position until the next greatest player comes along to usurp you. Or maybe you go sort of mad, or you die before then, but that's basically how it usually goes.
[00:20:42.56] Magnus has even said on a number of occasions that his own personal goal is to amass an Elo rating of 2900, which is so statistically unlikely for a non-computer to achieve, it's considered an inhuman feat. If you're better at math than we are, you can read more about this in a paper titled, On the Probability of Magnus Carlsen reaching 2900 that was published last year. And also if you read that paper and can explain to us what it's saying, we would appreciate it. We will even bring back the prize bucket from episode one.
[00:21:13.71] [Prof. Gerald Lambeau, from Good Will Hunting] So without further ado, come forward, silent rogue, and receive thy prize.
[00:21:18.32] [Upbeat piano music plays]
[00:21:18.65] [Ryan] What it boils down to is this. Because Magnus is at the top, he has to win every game he plays in order to not lose rating points. When chess is played by two equally matched computers, it results in a draw 100% of the time. That means that chess at its absolute base never has a clear winner or loser. Even a human player playing their best against a computer results in a draw if it's a perfectly executed game. Most of the time, a draw doesn't lose a player points, and it can even potentially earn them points, depending on the disparity between their rating and their opponent's rating.
[00:21:55.71] [Jess] But because Magnus is so far ahead of the rest of all the other players at this point, even a draw results in Magnus losing points.
[00:22:03.95] [Sombre electronic music plays]
[00:22:04.29] [Jess] To put this in perspective, if Magnus wins, say, seven games in a row and then loses the eighth game that he plays, he's back to exactly where he was in terms of his rating before the very first game was played. He'd have to win an exceptionally long string of successive games to reach the goal of 2900.
[00:22:25.20] [Ryan] Magnus has had a sequence of 125 undefeated consecutive classical games. But even that wasn't enough to get him over the 2900 threshold. The closest he's come is 2882, but the difference between 2882 and 2900 is like jumping from a 5 to an 8 on the Richter Scale. It's an order of magnitude that's measured exponentially, not linearly. Again, we're bad at math, so someone who knows better, please, correct us. But just for reference, the current best Stockfish computer engine has a rating of something like 3550. To echo Hans' sentiment...
[00:23:05.49] [with reverb] Math speaks for itself.
[00:23:08.13] [Jess] So why does this nearly impossible goal of 2900 matter? Why are we going on and on and on about it? Because it's the only thing Magnus has left to accomplish. He's achieved every single other standard for success in this sport. It's like he's at 99% completion in a video game and he just has this one ridiculously difficult side quest left.
[00:23:34.24] [Electronic video game music plays]
[00:23:37.15] It's like in Tears of the Kingdom where you can finish the whole "defeat Ganon" plotline, but if you didn't find all the fucking Bubbul Gems in every fucking cave first, you don't get 100% completion.
[00:23:48.55] [Music cuts out]
[00:23:49.45] [Ryan] Did you get 100% completion?
[00:23:51.46] [Jess] You know that I didn't, Ryan, so shut up.
[00:23:53.79] [Video game fail music plays]
[00:23:56.37] [Gloomy music plays]
[00:23:57.76] [Ryan] Even outside of the pie-in-the-sky 2900 rating goal, in Magnus' career he's played a bunch of tournaments and has beaten a bunch of really good players-- all of the game's elite, in fact.
[00:24:10.65] [Music fades]
[00:24:11.90] [Jess] In sum, here's what we know about Magnus Carlsen.
[00:24:14.31] [Sombre electronic music plays]
[00:24:14.80] As we already said, he's done pretty much everything you can do in chess.
[00:24:19.12] [Ryan] We know he's considered to be one of the greatest chess players of all time.
[00:24:23.08] [Jess] We know that he has a girlfriend that he doesn't really talk to the media about.
[00:24:27.28] [Ryan] We know that he has three sisters and that his parents are both engineers.
[00:24:31.36] [Jess] We don't really know who his friends are other than the other people in the chess community that he occasionally streams with, like Aryan Tari, who-- fun fact-- is also named in the lawsuit for gallivanting the streets of Austria defaming Hans. Great story, but we're going to get to it in a different episode.
[00:24:48.92] [Ryan] His favourite drink while playing chess is orange juice mixed with water, I guess. Just watered-down orange juice like our mothers used to do to us in sixth grade to cut back calories, because instead of playing outside with the other kids we were playing Yu-Gi-Oh, and we just opened the pack that contained the Left Leg of Exodia, and-- fuck yeah!-- we'll be the coolest kids in school, but we just need to spend the next six hours building a better deck to play with! That kind of juice.
[00:25:16.19] [Gloomy music plays]
[00:25:16.57] [Jess] And that's all we know about Magnus' private life. Professionally, we know that he plays chess brutally, exceptionally, and with extreme concentration.
[00:25:26.08] [Ryan] If you want to improve your own game, chess or otherwise, here's a tip from Magnus himself.
[00:25:31.63] [Magnus Carlsen] Sit at the chessboard and play with yourself.
[00:25:34.99] [Object vibrating]
[00:25:38.47] [Paino music plays]
[00:25:38.97] [Ryan] So I think you should also know that Magnus isn't just great at chess. He's also kind of great at making chess great. Not in a Trump kind of way, but in a good way. He's inspired a tonne of young players, and it's in part thanks to him that chess has gotten so popular. Obviously, chess has also grown a lot because of shows like Queen's Gambit and some really smart marketing geared towards the social media generation. We'll get more into Mittens the chess bot in another episode. But before all that, Magnus' charisma and coolness charmed the chess community.
[00:26:12.45] [Upbeat piano music plays]
[00:26:12.81] [Jess] He's also done a lot to improve the accessibility of chess in the last 10 years. He brought chess to a whole new player base in the form of Play Magnus, an online chess app and website. Play Magnus merged with chess24 in 2019 and was acquired by chess.com in 2022. It's arguable as to whether accessibility is really helped by participating in a monopoly, but what do I know? I'm not an economist, just a passionate anti-capitalist. All this to say, Magnus has played a big role in classical and online chess, and he's been one of the big names in chess for the better part of nearly two decades, both playing and shaping the game.
[00:26:52.84] [Comical slide whistle plays]
[00:26:54.96] [Ryan] We've talked so much about chess.com and Play Magnus.
[00:26:58.56] [Cheerful music plays]
[00:26:58.95] But did you know there is other chess websites?
[00:27:01.56] [Jess] And some of them are completely free.
[00:27:04.26] [Ryan] One of my personal favourites is Lichess. Lichess.org is a free open-source chess server powered by volunteers and donations. All you need to sign up is an email address.
[00:27:15.90] [Jess] On Lichess, you can play chess in all of its variations. They also have free puzzles.
[00:27:21.36] [Ryan] Not, like, picture puzzles. Like, chess puzzles where you have to solve a position or problem. They work on donations. They don't have the budget to send people flipping 100-piece picture puzzles.
[00:27:32.94] [Jess] You can study, practise, watch your favourite streamers, and even chat with other players.
[00:27:38.72] [Sombre music plays]
[00:27:39.09] [Ryan] Best of all, they have publicly stated that they will no longer cooperate with both the Saint Louis Chess Club-- yes, the same ones who host the Sinquefield Cup-- and the US Chess Federation, quote, "due to serious concerns about their lack of accountability," end quote, in the wake of multiple sexual assault and harassment allegations. Lichess is also not advertising their events.
[00:28:03.88] [Jess] We love the messaging they're putting out in support of this decision. Here's a quote from one of Lichess' blog posts. Quote, "Women and girls in chess already face an uphill battle. They deserve a safe and supportive environment, but too often, they encounter abuse, harassment, or worse. And too often, they feel powerless to report it or seek justice. It's time to help break the silence." End quote.
[00:28:33.48] [Cheerful music plays]
[00:28:33.92] [Ryan] So we don't get anything from this. But we support Lichess and their values, and you should too. Visit lichess.org and add RookedPodcast, all one word, to your friend list, so I can kick your [bleep] See you there.
[00:28:48.41] That's lichess.org.
[00:28:50.42] [Jess and Lanny McDonald] And tell 'em Lanny sent ya!
[00:28:52.61] [Eastside Dodge jingle plays]
[00:28:56.03] [Comical slide whistle plays]
[00:28:58.47] [Piano music plays]
[00:28:58.96] [Ryan] Even though he's arguably the greatest chess player of all time, Magnus' public life does sometimes extend beyond the chess board. For instance, he's also played in high-profile poker tournaments, with his winnings amounting to over 20 grand. Not that he does anything for the money, but that's nothing to sneeze at.
[00:29:17.68] Magnus is also an incredibly talented fantasy football player. If you don't know what that is, you pick a lineup of players from across the entire football league-- soccer, if you're North American boors like us-- and make a team of your own, scoring points depending on how the players do in their real games. In Magnus' first year in the Fantasy Premier League, he placed 85,781. But after having played for three years, he managed to make it to within the top 2,400.
[00:29:47.47] [Gloomy music plays]
[00:29:48.34] Do you want to guess out of how many players altogether?
[00:29:51.34] [Jess, sighing] I don't know. A million? I know even less about fantasy football than I do about chess.
[00:29:56.01] [Ryan laughs]
[00:29:56.56] [Ryan] Yeah, you know less about fantasy football than you do about regular football, and you know nothing about that. It's higher.
[00:30:03.83] [Jess] 100 million?
[00:30:05.21] [Ryan] That's way too high! I'm just going to tell you that at the time, it was around 10 million.
[00:30:10.67] [Jess] I mean, that's still impressive, though.
[00:30:12.29] [Ryan] Yeah, you're right.
[00:30:13.37] In December of 2020, mid-season of the FPL, Magnus managed to rise to the number-one spot, and he modestly tweeted out, "Bio needed an update," attaching his profile which read, quote, "World Chess Champion, the highest-rated chess player in the world. Current live number-one Fantasy Premier League player." End quote. He didn't end the season at the top, but honestly, to do this all while being the number-one chess player in the world-- it's such an incredible achievement.
[00:30:42.19] [Cheerful music plays]
[00:30:42.59] If I were number one at anything at any point ever in time, I would literally tattoo it on my face for everyone to know how fucking cool I was.
[00:30:51.68] [Jess] I mean, unless it was something that's just stupid to be number one at.
[00:30:55.01] [Ryan] Like what?
[00:30:56.48] [Jess] I don't know. Number-one segue racer in the world.
[00:30:59.33] [Ryan] Mmm, honestly, that's still pretty dope.
[00:31:01.58] [Jess] Anyway, Magnus is good at a lot of stuff, but you get the feeling that he does all of these other things in and around his first love of chess.
[00:31:09.49] [Gloomy music plays]
[00:31:09.95] Or, at least, chess was the big love of his life until recently. In the last couple of years, it's become more and more apparent that specifically classical chess does not hold the same appeal that it used for him. And that's a problem because a lot of the elite tournaments in chess are predominantly played in the classical format.
[00:31:30.08] [Ryan] For instance, 2023 was the first year since 2010 where Magnus was not named the World Chess Champion. But it's not because he lost. He just refused to defend his title. His reasoning is that the classical game format that the World Chess Championship is defined by is old and stale, and there's been no movement from FIDE to make any of the updates that Magnus and other players have suggested.
[00:31:55.67] [Piano music plays]
[00:31:56.15] Now, this all has come after the events of Sinquefield Cup, so it's still possible that the scandal has weighed in on his choice. But Magnus has said for a while now that he doesn't want to play long-form chess when it's crushingly dull, and that's what he considers the World Chess Championship format to be-- too boring and not enough of a challenge.
[00:32:16.20] [Jess] And it's not just the World Chess Championship. Here's a clip featuring Magnus a few months later at another classical event, Fact Check Tournament.
[00:32:23.71] [Ryan laughs]
[00:32:24.17] [Ryan] Oh, shit, I forgot to write it down, but it's the 2023 World Cup, which he actually went on to win.
[00:32:29.90] [Jess] Get it together, Ryan. The listeners are going to find out that we're just flying by the seat of our pants here.
[00:32:35.37] [Magnus Carlsen] What am I doing here? Like, why am I spending all this time playing classical chess, which I just find, you know, stressful and boring?
[00:32:49.73] [Ryan] Now, if Magnus were the king of cool, if he never got fussed about anything, not only would this make for a much less entertaining podcast, but he'd also be kind of an alien in the chess world. Ironically, Magnus himself thinks he has one of the more even temperaments in the game.
[00:33:06.74] [Magnus Carlsen] In terms of sanity, you know, I have my moments, good and bad.
[00:33:13.40] [Chuckles]
[00:33:14.12] Overall, I think it's-- I'm somebody who can certainly be very upset after games. Usually, it doesn't-- doesn't last. There haven't been any too egregious moments so far.
[00:33:31.85] [Piano music plays]
[00:33:32.09] [Ryan] But if you ask us, and obviously our opinions matter way more than Magnus Carlsen's because it's our podcast here, Magnus isn't an outlier when it comes to his temperament. Everyone has their moments, Magnus included. Maybe it wasn't fair to play that clip of a kid having a temper tantrum in episode one. But I don't necessarily consider it unfair, per se. For instance, here's a clip of an interview that Magnus gave during the 2017 Paris Grand Chess Tour after winning the game on day three.
[00:34:01.59] [Maurice Ashley] Well, we're with the King of Rapids. Magnus Carlsen has taken at least that title, not that it means anything as far as this tournament is concerned, but at least he's shown that he is indeed the best player in the world and starting off the Grand Chess Tour quite well. Magnus, you seemed to have some hiccups earlier today. You didn't have really smooth performances. And this game wasn't that smooth either. It looked a little bit unclear. What was your feeling overall as the game was transpiring?
[00:34:31.98] [Magnus Carlsen] Okay, I mean, what do you want me to do? So, I mean, I take-- I take the piece and then... I mean, of course, he hasn't done anything particularly wrong. Of course, he's not going to be lost. I mean, what do you-- what do you want from me?
[00:34:45.82] [Maurice Ashley, laughing awkwardly] I don't want anything. I just want to see just chess getting played.
[00:34:48.99] [Magnus Carlsen] Yeah, but, I mean, you're talking about-- I mean, that the game wasn't smooth. And, again, what do you-- what do you want me to do? I mean-- yeah, sure.
[00:34:58.74] [Maurice Ashley] Oh, well--
[00:34:59.31] [Magnus Carlsen] I mean, do you want me to get a huge advantage from the opening and then to push it all the way? Is that the only way you can win a smooth game? Is that your point?
[00:35:08.67] [Maurice Ashley] Oh, not at all, Magnus. But certainly the game was tricky enough. Let me get your thoughts on how you've done so far--
[00:35:14.43] [Magnus Carlsen] Yeah, I'm just feeling that the whole, you know, the whole-- the way you're approaching it is trying to belittle the whole thing. That's my only issue.
[00:35:23.46] [Maurice Ashley] My apologies, Magnus. We definitely have respect for you as a World Champion. So don't take any offence to what we're trying to say. We're just trying to do commentary.
[00:35:30.87] [Jess] If you don't completely understand what's happening here, this is the context.
[00:35:34.57] [Piano music plays]
[00:35:35.05] Magnus is mad because the interviewer, Maurice Ashley, says that his games, quote, could have been smoother. And Magnus finds that offensive because he did win his games. I honestly can see Magnus' side because he's really just being put on a pedestal here. He's expected to play every game not just to win, but to win perfectly, without any errors. Winning isn't enough. Everyone expects him to dominate. That's how the chess world views Magnus. He's the golden child, almost godlike in his prowess, and they expect nothing less. But at the end of the day, Magnus isn't a God. He's a humble human like the rest of us. And to be human is to err, as they say, and inevitably Magnus does make mistakes.
[00:36:24.03] [Sinister synth music plays]
[00:36:24.43] [Ryan] Not that God hasn't made any mistakes. Have you ever seen a snake? No fucking feet! No arms or legs! Some lay eggs and some have live babies? Make up your mind, snakes! And worms, too. They can survive even if you chop them up? They just turn into more worms! Are they a new, different worm or a clone worm? What about eels? We don't even know where the fucking eels come from! Science literally doesn't know and they have, like, actively tried to track them and they keep losing them. Where are you going, eels?
[00:36:57.79] [Jess] Actually, they do know where eels come from as of last year. And, of course, it's the Bermuda Triangle. I need to look into this more.
[00:37:07.15] [Ryan] Okay, podcast number three-- following the poop podcast, obviously-- eels!
[00:37:12.01] [Jess] If you guys just don't really care about Hans and Magnus the way that you care about eels, let us know. We will take this podcast and full 180 it into an eel podcast. We don't even have to finish the Hans-Magnus thing if you guys care about eels more. Let us know.
[00:37:25.01] [Ryan] But for now, we'll just keep talking about Magnus.
[00:37:27.55] [Gloomy music plays]
[00:37:27.85] In all honesty, this is really kind of the end of the hard facts about Magnus.
[00:37:32.05] [Jess] Yeah, like, most of the things we've talked about so far you could also just find by googling.
[00:37:36.28] [Ryan] Guess that's the end of the episode, then.
[00:37:38.46] [Rooked outro plays]
[00:37:40.78] [Tape rewinding]
[00:37:41.71] Just kidding. We have a lot more to say.
[00:37:43.86] [Upbeat piano music plays]
[00:37:44.15] [Jess] Yeah, but from this point onwards, it's mostly our speculations of why we think Magnus is acting the way that he is and our best guesses as to what his mindset is about the whole scandal. But I feel like these postulations aren't totally off base, because it just makes sense that, obviously, Magnus isn't a God, but there's all these expectations from the chess community that Magnus is supposed to act like he is the God of chess. And maybe if he was having a good time doing that, there wouldn't be any of these issues. But one of the other interesting things about chess is that it's not a game you play by yourself. You play it against someone, and some of the best moments in chess history are born not necessarily from one player ruling them all. It comes from the contest, the head-to-head of two well-matched players who are sharpening their wits against each other.
[00:38:37.09] [Ryan] Kasparov's immortal against Topalov. Fischer versus the Russians. Morphy's Opera Game. All these chronicled and well-referenced games are as much about the competition as they are about the victor. A knife can only be sharpened when it's met with the proper resistance to hone it, and though Magnus has seen a number of challenges in his career to get to where he is now, the current problem is that there's not really anyone who can take the title of GOAT from him... At least not at this moment in time.
[00:39:07.94] [Magnus Carlsen] In terms of rivals, there are tiers. The first tier is, like, no rivals.
[00:39:14.24] [Jess] It begs the question, what happens when you can't live up to the pressure and expectations of perfection?
[00:39:20.92] [Sinister synth music plays]
[00:39:21.29] And on top of that, what do you do when the reality of unattainable perfection just becomes too lonely and boring?
[00:39:28.49] [Ryan] Here's what Brin had to say about Magnus during his 2016 World Chess Championship against Karjakin.
[00:39:34.85] [Brin-Jonathan Butler] You can feel the heart rate of the people escalating, and their nerves, and how you deal with pressure. Watching Magnus Carlsen and Sergey Karjakin was like watching two guys in a torture chamber. They could age 10 years by the end of the night. I ended up just having an extraordinary respect for what it takes to maintain your composure for that period of time. I can't think of many tasks that require that level of focus and concentration, and just dealing with nerves. If you make one blunder, just how quickly you're going to be judged so incredibly harshly.
[00:40:09.21] [Sombre electronic music plays]
[00:40:10.44] [Jess] There's so much pressure to be the best-- not just the best, but the greatest to ever play the game. And then on top of that, there's the expectation to not fuck up. What kind of mental toll does that take on a person? We'll get more into the psychology of this kind of thing in a later episode, but for now, here's Bill, the Mental Game Coach.
[00:40:32.70] [Bill Cole] A kid will say to me, "Oh, I'm really nervous about playing," and they're going to a higher level tournament. I ask them, "So between you down here and them up there, who has the pressure?" "Oh, I do, I do, I do." "Do you really?" "They could really embarrass me and kill me and--" "But who really has the pressure?" And they think and they go, "Oh, I see. They're expected to win. I'm not." And they go and they play well because nothing to lose.
[00:41:00.56] [Gloomy music plays]
[00:41:01.16] [Ryan] So it makes sense, then, that once you've reached the very top of the game, you've won it all in terms of events and honours, that you would start looking for other avenues to improve the game, and maybe also to entertain yourself. Again, this is just pure speculation, and it could be neither of those things, but this whole story makes sense to me as to why Magnus might go through all the effort of making Hans into a villain... or at least a scapegoat, the all-encompassing, Capital C Cheater. And with Magnus' notoriety and clout in the chess world, Hans is necessarily the Hester Prynne of chess, because Magnus says so.
[00:41:41.67] But why Hans and not someone else. And why haven't we heard their names, too?
[00:41:47.53] [Brin-Jonathan Butler] Any computer can beat any chess World Champion who ever lived. So the question that I think has not been asked yet is chess.com has called out Hans Niemann as being a repeat offender of cheating. What they haven't been asked is who else has been cheating? Like, I think what you need, like what baseball had, was a Mitchell Report, to see the extent to which everybody is cheating. And I think the same is true in chess. You have all the incentives to do it. We just don't have much transparency to go on. Historically, Magnus Carlsen has not called out everybody who's beat him. I don't think he's ever done it before, to say that they were assisted in beating him, except in this instance, and this guy has a history of cheating. So it seems to reflect much more on Hans Niemann than it does on Magnus Carlsen's character, in my view.
[00:42:36.10] [Jess] Let's just back up a bit to the game in question where Hans allegedly cheated. If you don't remember, it's the one that took place at the Sinquefield Cup where Hans beat Magnus with the black pieces, and then he was all like...
[00:42:47.38] [Hans Niemann] I think he was just so demoralized because he's losing to such an idiot like me, you know? It's just-- it must be embarrassing for the World Champion to lose to me. I feel bad for him.
[00:42:56.38] [Ryan] Now that we have a better understanding of who Magnus is, we might be able to answer some of our original questions that we kind of left hanging in episode one.
[00:43:05.01] [Eerie music plays]
[00:43:05.26] Like why did Magnus call out Hans for cheating?
[00:43:08.26] [Jess] Why this game? Why this way? Ghosting from the tournament with a mysterious tweet that snowballed into a media frenzy clusterfuck that eventually left Hans's career in tatters. We're going to get more into Hans' side of things next episode, by the way. We wanted it to be this episode, but this episode is too long. Sorry, not sorry. But here's a teaser from lawyer David Franklin. This is what he had to say when we asked him what he thought about how Magnus dealt with the events at Sinquefield Cup.
[00:43:38.29] [David Franklin] So Magnus recognizes that he's the strongest player in the world. He's the biggest name in the sport. And he has to do it sparingly, but if he says, I'm not going to play this guy because I don't think he's on the up and up, organizers are going to side with him. They're not going to side with number 50 in the world, who's, you know, a mere 2700 player. So guess I have mixed feelings about it. I think it's a good thing that Magnus is shining a light on the cheating problem. I just don't think that this was the right way to go about doing it.
[00:44:12.89] [Sombre electronic music plays]
[00:44:17.33] [Ryan] Option one is maybe Magnus let his so-called godly chess powers go to his head and he made a questionable call to bring justice to the game, namely to scapegoat Hans Niemann as the face of cheating in chess. At least, that's how it looks from where we're sitting. And now we're using our much lowlier podcast powers to question whether that was the right thing for Magnus to do.
[00:44:39.74] [Jess] Because we now know in the wake of the Sinquefield scandal that Hans has cheated before, at least online. And we know that there's other big players who have also been caught out cheating since then. Again, we're going to have a whole episode on cheating, so that's when we're going to talk about it more.
[00:44:56.68] [Soft synth music plays]
[00:44:56.97] And this is not the first instance of cheating in chess either. It turns out that cheating is, unfortunately, not a small part of elite chess culture. So it could be that Magnus is aware of how fucked up and prolific cheating in chess is, got sick of it, and saw Hans as the easiest target to bring the issue into the spotlight. Even if Magnus was being motivated by the spirit of vigilante justice, a la Batman, most people are in agreement that the way Magnus quit the tournament and threw Hans under the bus was not the right way of doing things. Even if he was righteously motivated, he is not the hero chess deserves.
[00:45:37.08] [Robert Pattinson as Batman] I'm vengeance.
[00:45:38.34] [Jess] Here's what FIDE Master James Canty III had to say when we asked him about Magnus' reaction and whether or not James thought Hans cheated.
[00:45:46.89] [James Canty III] He threw a hissy fit there. I think Magnus, actually, bro-- I think he was in the wrong, to be honest. But a lot of people think that. A lot of people think that, but it is Magnus, and some people side with him. A lot of people sided with him, and because they sided with him, you have to understand and respond to that. You got to be like, okay, well, that makes sense. I mean, it really does. It makes sense that if these strong players are siding with him, then you actually have to take it very serious. But if there's no evidence at the end of the day, like they say, innocent until proven guilty. That's really what it is. Really, this is going to come back to bite you if you are wrong. Like, if you say, oh, he is cheating, oh, he cheated before, of course, he's cheating. But then when it comes out he didn't, how do you look now? Like, I understand you're entitled to your opinion, but you actually don't have all the information. You actually really don't know. You're just going off of what your opinion is. So I believe it's always good to stay, like, just neutral there and innocent until proven guilty, for both sides.
[00:46:38.11] [Gloomy music plays]
[00:46:39.85] [Ryan] So, option two is exactly what Magnus stated in the letter he released weeks after leaving the Sinquefield Cup. He believes that Hans cheated and he doesn't want to play against cheaters. It just so happens that because he is Magnus Carlsen, he has more clout than any other player in the world, and he can get away with it. Here's a quote from Hans' lawsuit. Quote, "Carlsen, having solidified his position as the King of Chess, believes that when it comes to chess, he can do whatever he wants and get away with it." End quote.
[00:47:11.38] [Jess] I'm sure there are a lot of players who are truly honest and never cheat, and also don't want to play against cheaters.
[00:47:19.09] [Soft synth music plays]
[00:47:19.30] But if anyone else pulled what Magnus did, they probably would have been fined or even barred from future events. What Magnus did is generally considered bad behaviour in chess, even if Hans did cheat. So if it is just the case that Magnus was frustrated that Hans cheated, and just kind of was allowed to blow up Hans' career as a result, it's kind of bananas that everyone let him do it. And they didn't just let him. In the case of chess.com, they fully got on board.
[00:47:51.34] [Ryan] To me this whole argument of Magnus just not wanting or willing to play cheaters doesn't really hold up, especially if you take into consideration what Hans' lawyers have claimed. Quote, "In fact, Sebastian Feller, a European Grandmaster who was caught cheating at the 2010 Chess Olympiad tournament and subsequently banned from participating in FIDE-sanctioned events for nearly three years, is currently playing in the same tournament as Carlsen, the 2022 European Club Cup, with no objection whatsoever from chess.com or Carlsen. Magnus recently played a FIDE-sanctioned game against Parham Maghsoodloo, who was banned from lichess.org for cheating. Likewise, chess Grandmaster Teimour Radjabov has been repeatedly boycotted by players for allegedly cheating, and Danny Rensch has claimed that chess.com algorithms confirmed that he cheated. Yet to this day, Radjabov is allowed to compete in prize money events on chess.com, including the Global Chess Championship, from which Niemann was uninvited." End quote.
[00:48:51.79] [Jess] So if Hans' lawyers are to be believed here-- which, I mean, you probably shouldn't document falsified claims in such a high-profile case, but who knows?-- isn't Magnus necessarily a hypocrite for continuing to play against documented cheaters?
[00:49:08.14] [Ryan] Yeah, and furthermore-- I bet you never saw this coming-- there's a clip on YouTube of Magnus himself cheating in an online tournament against Daniel Naroditsky.
[00:49:18.88] Magnus is in a room with a few friends, one of them being GM David Howell. On the 11th move, Naroditsky blunders and Magnus has the opportunity to trap his queen. Magnus doesn't see it until David points it out, and then Magnus plays the move. Listen to this clip from the Chess Press YouTube channel.
[00:49:38.91] [David Howell] Wait, you can trap it.
[00:49:40.26] [Laughter]
[00:49:40.71] [Magnus Carlsen] How? Oh, fuck.
[00:49:42.64] [David Howell] Sorry, I shouldn't--
[00:49:43.38] [Magnus Carlsen] Oh, cheating! Cheating!
[00:49:48.28] [David Howell] I was talking about Tinder. You can trap it by if you click, swipe right.
[00:49:51.91] Yeah
[00:49:52.72] [Magnus Carlsen] Cheating!
[00:49:53.53] [David Howell] If you win now, I will--
[00:49:56.65] [Magnus Carlsen] Oh, boy. These backseat gamers. That's a ban. That's a ban.
[00:50:01.96] [Ryan] And here's Daniel's response during a stream after the tournament.
[00:50:05.83] [Daniel Naroditsky] When I found out initially after the tournament, I was at first a little bit salty, just sort of instinctively. But not like I'm going to do anything about it. I just sort of rolled my eyes. But obviously upon reflection, it's completely innocuous, Magnus just having a good time. And I know from firsthand experience, when you're watching someone's game it's sometimes almost impossible not to say something. It's like an instinct. He clearly was not being malicious or ultra-competitive or anything like that.
[00:50:31.79] In addition, it was only the first game of the streak. I mean, if this was the last game of the tournament, you know, maybe I'd be a little bit more peeved.
[00:50:38.62] [Piano music plays]
[00:50:39.07] [Ryan] Now, obviously, as Naroditsky points out, this was clearly not malicious cheating, but it was still technically cheating, according to the rules. As we'll learn in the next episode when we discuss more about Hans and his potential mentor, Maxime Dlugy, this little distinction of other people naming moves and then the player making those moves can actually have giant repercussions, like account banning. So clearly there's grey areas in regards to cheating, but at the end of the day, it seems like Magnus has also cheated onlind... Even though he didn't necessarily mean to.
[00:51:15.54] [Gloomy music plays]
[00:51:18.93] [Jess] Option 3, and this is what Hans and his lawyers have argued, is that Magnus' defeat at the hands of Hans-- say that 10 times fast-- made Magnus big mad because it gets in the way of his 100% game-finishing chess completion that we were talking about earlier.
[00:51:36.39] [Electronic video game music plays]
[00:51:38.69] Here's another quote from the lawsuit. And don't worry, we're going to revisit the lawsuit again in its own episode. This is just a sneak peek into how ridiculous the lawsuit is. Quote, "Niemann's upset victory effectively dashed Carlsen's two remaining statistical ambitions, namely, achieving a 2900 FIDE performance rating for the first time in history, and breaking his own world record unbeaten streak in FIDE-sanctioned events. These accomplishments, if achieved, would have solidified Carlsen as arguably the greatest chess player of all time, and made his burgeoning chess empire even more valuable." End quote.
[00:52:15.47] [Ryan] Okay, what? Let's break this down. First, the 2900 thing. Hans' lawyers are suggesting that by losing to Hans, Magnus will never achieve 2900. That just doesn't make any sense. By losing to anyone, Magnus is set back from the 2900 goal, because as we already said, it's really not achievable. Yeah, okay, Magnus was probably set further back than usual in losing to Hans, since Hans' rating was high 2600 at the time of the Sinquefield Cup.
[00:52:47.10] Remember, he was a last-minute invite to Sinqeufield, because Richard Rapport, a higher-rated player than Hans, dropped out. Hans was the lowest-rated player on the field, and thus least likely to upset the highest-ranked player. Still, though, this is just a ridiculous claim.
[00:53:05.89] [Jess] Second, the world record FIDE streak. The person who holds this record currently is Magnus.
[00:53:13.36] [Upbeat piano music plays]
[00:53:13.81] They're arguing that Magnus is upset that he can't beat himself? What does that have to do with Hans? Also, Magnus will probably never play that number of classical chess games again in his lifetime because, again, he says that they're boring and not worth his time. So to say that in order to become the best chess player of all time, you have to not only hold the top records, but also be able to beat your own all-time records, is frankly just fucking stupid.
[00:53:46.33] That's like saying Taylor Swift can only be the number-one pop performer of our generation if she keeps outselling her tours. Eras is making a billion dollars. Even if her next tour doesn't make a billion dollars again, she's still one of the top-earning performers. She doesn't need to keep breaking the records she herself is setting to prove that.
[00:54:09.02] [Ryan] And she's still our fucking queen!
[00:54:11.48] [Jess] Sure, maybe breaking your own records, quote, solidifies you as the greatest player of all time. But this is really just some hat-on-a-hat bullshit. Magnus is already on record as one of the greatest players because all he has left is inhuman chess feats. Number 3 I think is not super valid. Hans just thinks that he is very important, or at least his lawyers do.
[00:54:38.96] [Sombre electronic music plays]
[00:54:39.44] [Ryan] Okay, option number 4-- and this is something that I wouldn't have even considered until our interview with Mike Boyd-- but maybe Magnus threw the game... on purpose.
[00:54:51.20] [Mike Boyd] I think that it's possible that Magnus deliberately threw the game to rid the chess world of Hans because he has cheated in the past on chess.com. And some people think once a cheater, always a cheater. And I think that he's so-- his view of chess is so pure and so, it should be this pure thing that has no imperfections, and the pool of competitors should be this honourable group that all want the best for chess, that he would actually go through this debacle to rid the chess world of someone like Hans and make an example of him, saying, "I have the power to destroy your career if you cheat, on chess.com or in competitions." And I think that it's plausible that he actually made that decision.
[00:55:47.69] [Piano music plays]
[00:55:49.90] [Jess] I don't know if I can really see Magnus throwing it on purpose. It just kind of goes against everything he believes in, really. And it's morally out of character for him. But, honestly, who knows. Interesting theory nonetheless.
[00:56:03.19] [Ryan] I mean, maybe Mike is on to something, though. Perhaps his theory becomes more likely if you remove the intent behind it. It's possible Magnus unconsciously threw the game. Here's lawyer David Franklin again.
[00:56:18.42] [David Franklin] My read of the situation is that Magnus was suspicious about Hans already, even before their game. And I think Magnus went into that game already psyched out.
[00:56:30.27] Magnus is a sort of odd character in that he has enormous sporting strengths. He's by far the strongest player in the world, but he can sometimes be his worst enemy. He gets into his own head a bit, and I think he did that in this case. He was on the back foot psychologically from the start. And so, Magnus played well below his usual level in that game. Hans played really well, but not freakishly well.
[00:56:58.66] And so, in Magnus' official statement when he says that "Hans wasn't tense or even fully concentrating on the game in critical positions while outplaying me as black in a way I think only a handful of players can do," that just struck me when I read it as self-justifying bullshit for Magnus, to be honest. He got outplayed because he was psyched out and he was playing a good player.
[00:57:24.72] [Gloomy music plays]
[00:57:27.60] [Ryan] So where does this leave us? We've sort of debunked all of the options we could think of.
[00:57:33.94] [Jess] I guess this is the problem with this story. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle of all of these options, or it's something that we couldn't even possibly fathom.
[00:57:44.26] [Ryan] If we take Magnus at his word, I think we can say for certain that he thinks Hans cheated and he didn't want to play a cheater, at least in that moment on September 4th, 2022. But that still leaves lots of questions unanswered.
[00:57:58.54] [Jess] Yeah, like, why is he still playing other known cheaters? He probably realized retroactively that he abused his clout and was biting off way more than he could chew by trying to single-handedly take down all cheating in chess.
[00:58:11.86] [Soft synth music plays]
[00:58:12.19] [Ryan] We don't really want to give anything from the lawsuit episode away. But I will say this. As of August 28, 2023, chess.com announced that the lawsuit had been resolved. Magnus' statement in that announcement reads in part, quote, "I am willing to play Niemann in future events should we be paired together," end quote.
[00:58:34.01] [Gloomy music plays]
[00:58:34.45] [Jess] This might seem anticlimactic, but don't worry. The drama is not yet over. We're going to get into how the lawsuit was, quote, resolved, and we say "quote, resolved" because it's still super messy, and there's a lot of other questions that need answers.
[00:58:52.06] [Ryan] But I guess for this episode, here's the best conclusion we can come to. Magnus has a lot of pressure on him to be the greatest at chess, and for the most part, he is. But part of the reason this whole scandal came about is because, despite perhaps being a chess God, Magnus is just a human being.
[00:59:12.58] [Jess] And though Hans is playing out as the villain in this story, he's also just a human. At the end of the day, these are two players with incredible passion for a board game. They aren't victims and prosecutors, or at least they're not supposed to be. And our purpose is to uncover what has transpired to make these two the symbols of a battle that is waging for the very heart of the game.
[00:59:42.76] [Ryan, synthesized voice with reverb] Everybody poops.
[00:59:45.28] [Rooked outro plays]
[00:59:49.55] [Ryan] Next time on Rooked, we basically do the same thing we just did in this episode but for Hans.
[00:59:54.44] [Jess] That's right! Now it's Moriarty's turn! We put the heels of the biggest heel in chess to the coals! We're going to talk about why everyone so easily believed Hans is a cheater, some of the weird shit he's done in his short life, and how completely fucked his career was by Magnus' allegations.
[01:00:11.33] [Ryan] And now because you know that the lawsuit is officially over, we'll talk about Hans' return to chess, and the newest scandals that have arisen involving him.
[01:00:21.56] [Jess] The devil works hard but Hans Niemann works harder.
[01:00:30.84] [Rooked] The Cheaters' Gambit is written and produced by me, Jess Schmidt.
[01:00:34.41] [Ryan] And by me, Ryan Webb.
[01:00:36.45] [Jess] Our amazing music is by the ever-talented Lorna Gilfedder.
[01:00:40.17] [Ryan] Our executive producers are Rooney and Indigo.
[01:00:43.89] [both] Speak.
[01:00:44.42] [Rooney and Indigo howling]
[01:00:47.59] [Rooked outro plays]
[01:00:48.05] [Ryan] This podcast is recorded on the traditional Treaty 7 territory of the Blackfoot Confederacy, the land of the Siksika, the Kainai the Piikani, as well as the Stoney Nakoda and the Tsuut'ina Nations.
[01:00:59.72] [Jess] We acknowledge that this territory is home to the Metis Nation of Alberta, Region 3 within the historical Northwest Metis Homeland. In the spirit of respect, reciprocity, and truth, we honour and acknowledge all nations, Indigenous and non, who live, work, and play on this land, and who honour and celebrate this territory.
[01:01:19.49] [Ryan] This gathering place and therefore this podcast provides us with an opportunity to engage in and demonstrate reconciliation. The Government of Canada has not followed through on a number of the Calls to Action that have been suggested by the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada. One of the Calls to Action is for the Government of Canada to repeal Section 43 of the Criminal Code. Section 43 states that every school teacher, parent, or person standing in the place of a parent is justified in using force by way of correction toward a pupil or child as the case may be, who is under his care if the force does not exceed what is reasonable under the circumstances. The defence of lawful correction or reasonable chastisement appeared in Canada's first Criminal Code in 1892, and the content has remained virtually unchanged since then.
[01:02:08.29] Altogether, over 130 residential schools operated in Canada between 1831 and 1996. Think about that. 1996 isn't that long ago. No doubt, Section 43 enabled and justified the actions of some teachers in residential schools. Child physical abuse is obviously considered an adverse experience, and the effects of the stress that generates can have long-lasting destructive impacts into adulthood.
[01:02:37.24] [Music fades]
[01:02:37.68] Do better, Canada.